Host: [00:00:00] What if your biggest money fears became your greatest strength? After watching her family’s financial security disappear overnight, today’s guest spent decades building a six-figure nest egg as a teacher living abroad. Yet the money fears from her childhood remained until the FIRE movement came in and showed her a new path. Then, she adjusted her portfolio and followed the simple steps to reach financial independence. Her journey proves that financial independence isn’t just about building wealth, it’s about breaking free from the money fears that hold us back.
Host: [00:00:36] (music)
Mindy: [00:00:40] Hello, hello, hello and welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. My name is Mindy Jensen and with me as always is my never been to Bali co-host, Scott Trench.
Scott: [00:00:48] Oh, that sure wasn’t nice, uh, Mindy, to way you introduced me. Bigger Pockets has a goal of creating 1 million millionaires. You’re in the right place if you want to get your financial house in order because we truly believe financial freedom is attainable for everyone, no matter when or where you’re starting.
Mindy: [00:01:03] Amy Meekly is a dear friend of mine. In fact, we just got off a cruise boat three days ago, and I am so excited to have her on the show today to tell her journey of turning her teacher salary into financial independence through geographic arbitrage. Amy, welcome to the show. I’m so excited to talk to you today.
Amy: [00:01:21] Thank you, Scott and Mindy. I’m so pleased to be here and really honored to be on your podcast. I’ve been following you for years and appreciate all that you’re doing to advance financial literacy in the world.
Mindy: [00:01:31] Well, Amy, we cannot do it without people like you who are willing to share their stories. Uh, let’s talk about your beginning, your financial beginnings. I know you grew up with some financial insecurity. What did that look like growing up?
Amy: [00:01:45] Sure. you know, when I was a kid, um, my dad was an attorney and I had three older sisters who are much older than me. I was a surprise child later in my parents’ life. And so I did have financial security, um, as a child. Um, but then when my dad was, when I was 12, my dad ran off, kind of typical midlife crisis, ran off with the younger woman, bought a sports car. um, and he wasn’t paying child support. Uh, so my three sisters were all in college at the time and it was just me and my mom at home, and that really deeply impacted me. I didn’t know my parents, you know, they outwardly, I didn’t know that there were any problems in the marriage. Um, they seemed to get along well, and so it really was a shock to me and then my mom, we had to sell our family home. We moved to a different state so my mom could go to school and be near her the rest of her family. Um, she was frantically reading finance books. She didn’t really know anything about the finances, had never finished her college degree. And I really saw that, um, money insecurity in her, you know, being dependent on a man, and I I became almost like a, a her trusted uh, friend or almost like a spousal role in a way. And so a lot of those money fears were passed on to me.
Amy: [00:02:54] Um, and then, you know, I I had, I had to support myself a lot more than my sisters did as far as paying for college, you know, paying my rent, everything really fell on my shoulders during my college years. Um, so I really learned how to pinch pennies. I lived in the crappiest student apartments and I was an RA for some years. So, um, luckily I graduated debt-free, but it took me five years and I was always working two jobs and hustling. So I I learned a lot about budgeting during that time. Um, but I also had a a scarcity around money and I also didn’t feel comfortable spending, which wasn’t always healthy either.
Mindy: [00:03:28] So I can identify with that last comment, uh, very much. And you, I think it’s really impressive that you graduated college debt-free. Uh, you had to work two jobs. It took you five years, but you graduated debt-free. And we hear so many stories of people who graduate with 50, 100, $200,000 in student loan debts and then they’re like, oh, now what do I do? So I think you had a a much better approach even though maybe the reasoning behind it was was uh scarcity and fear. Once you graduated college, what did you study in college?
Amy: [00:03:58] I studied history, which didn’t really give me a lot of options, but it was something that I loved. And I thought it would, I was interested in teaching, and my sister had lived abroad briefly and so my, my first plan of action was to go abroad to Japan and teach English and I taught in, uh, Japanese public high schools, which were super fun. They used to bow to me before class and they were just such fun kids. You know, they’d say shitsurei shimasu, hai! and then bow and like so much enthusiasm. And I just had such an incredible cultural experience there. I mean, the Japanese government flew me over. It’s called the JET Program. So, you know, they paid my rent and I didn’t make a huge salary over there, but it really opened my eyes to possibility. I I never imagined imagined that I would live so many years abroad. I’ve lived 23 years abroad at this point, but I thought I’d go just for a year or two and I’d come back to the US, maybe get a doctorate, PhD or something and do the history route. But I discovered I loved, I really loved teaching, and then I learned about international schools, and that was the ticket really to save more as an educator. Um, I had to go back and get my master’s in the US, and then really target international schools primari- primarily in Asia because they do pay better than other international schools in other parts of the world.
Scott: [00:05:08] Just to be clear, do international schools pay better than US schools and you have subsidized things like housing and and other benefits that go along with it? Or is it just one of those, like the the in the overall uh impact is an increased ability to save?
Amy: [00:05:24] Yes. Primary I mean, international schools can vary quite a lot because there’s so many different qualities of international schools and types of international schools. But if you, you know, there are especially in Asia, a lot of the top-tier schools pay extremely well. Um, so they will ship your things over. They will pay for annual flights home. They do pay your rent. Um, and so they’re really that fast-tracked my ability to save. You know, all I had to really cover was just my food expenses and travel. And I was frugal anyways, so even when I traveled, I was, you know, I was used to doing the backpacking style of traveling. So it definitely, and a lot of times, you know, they’ll put into your social security as well, depending on the school, or they’ll do, you know, incredible matching programs. And so some of the top-tier schools are harder to get into and I I had to work my way up, you know, starting at like a more entry-level school and it took a few years, but, um, definitely they pay better, and especially the Asian schools.
Scott: [00:06:21] Just one, one question or observation here. Are you saying that in Asia, um, top teachers get paid more, like way more than teachers at that are of that are not that can’t get access to those same jobs and they’re unlike in the US.
Amy: [00:06:36] Yes, they do. And I mean teaching salaries vary a lot state by state, you know, so I mean, I know teachers in New York make more than teachers in a lot of other places in the country, but yes, definitely without a doubt. And when you factor in all the other benefits as well, like the free housing, the free annual flights, the, the, the matching programs and all of that, you know, there is a huge upside to teaching internationally in Asia. You know, but those, those schools definitely require you to have your master’s in education, you know, more teaching experience. You know, it’s not something that just with my history degree I could have gotten initially.
Scott: [00:07:09] So it’s not hard to then build a picture of basic frugality and smart money management would allow after a decade or or or more for a substantial pile of wealth to be accumulated, um, in there. But I do have a question about how you mechanically invested, because I’ve heard that that can be difficult for folks who are living internationally to purchase things like index funds, for example, in the same way that we we take for granted here on the mainland. Is that is that a myth?
Amy: [00:07:37] No, I didn’t find it hard to purchase index funds. I did, you know, I wasn’t able to take advantage of like 401k programs, uh but I because a lot of times I was living tax-free, like my, I worked in New Delhi, India for four years and they paid my taxes. Um, so there was, you know, so I was getting that benefit anyway. Um, or, you know, and in Singapore when I lived there, there’s kind of a reciprocal tax agreement. I was paying Singapore taxes, but not US taxes. And at the time it was 7%, you know, Singapore taxes is what I was paying. So I was able to invest in like Vanguard Vanguard index funds, but I wasn’t able to take advantage of a 401k or some some kind of retirement product like that.
Mindy: [00:08:18] Do you have access to a Roth IRA? Because you do have earned income, but it’s not American earned income.
Amy: [00:08:25] No, you’re not supposed to invest in a Roth IRA if it’s not US earned salary income. And because my salary, you know, because I was filing the 2555, which is a foreign income earned exclusion act, I’m not being taxed on my US income, so therefore I couldn’t take advantage of a Roth. Now, I do have a Roth for all the years that I, you know, my early life because I read invest, I saw my mom reading investing books when I was young. There were some years when I was able to invest in a Roth, but not a lot of years. So a lot of my index investing was just in a regular brokerage account.
Mindy: [00:08:59] Ah, Scott, Amy’s not gonna find herself in the middle-class trap here.
Scott: [00:09:02] Yep, love it. And a couple more more things on this. So it sounds like, um, and there’s a whole bunch of of other things I’d love to get into here after a beer or three in terms of uh how schooling schools work in Asia compared to America. But if if just to get a an idea of this, and I I could be completely wrong, so let me know how out of touch this this is, but I would guess that a teacher, you know, let’s call it in um, you know, somewhere in the South, like Tennessee or or Alabama might make 75,000 a year after 10 years in the profession with a pension accruing, something something along those lines. And someone in New York, maybe closer to 90 at that same level. Is that close and what would be the comp for a teacher who really got into one of the top schools in Asia?
Amy: [00:09:45] I’m not honestly very, I’m sure about teaching salaries in the U.S. I’ve never taught in the US other than my student teaching. Like I was lucky once I graduated with my master’s degree, I ended up getting that job in Singapore just because I knew someone who worked there. I was really, very lucky. I’m grateful to him. Um, but I would even think that that might be a little bit high, you know, if that’s a a starting salary, I would think that would be very high. I think most teachers earn much less than that. Um, I think when I left Bangkok, I was earning around 90k a year, but I was also saving 90% of my salary, uh, because I had a furnished, I mean they gave me a furnished um housing situation. And also it was COVID, so. And and I was feeling really burned out and I discovered the FIRE movement at that point and so I really wanted to exit quickly. And so I was able to fast track my um savings, you know, just paying for food and there wasn’t a whole lot of travel during the COVID days. But you know, I know not everybody has the ability to save that much and I’m grateful. I didn’t save that every year that I was an international school teacher, but I’m grateful for my time doing that. And I guess I would encourage listeners, you know, if they are teachers, you know, I also knew a lot of teaching couples who went abroad and they really fast-tracked their finances because they were getting double the salary, you know, one housing allowance, and often some of their kids can go to school for free or partial subsidy and these these international schools are incredible. Um, so there’s a huge benefit, you know, and their their kids are in the class with nationalities from 20 different countries. You know, there’s maybe 80 nationalities in one school. So it’s a it’s a great opportunity for families. You know, and and for listeners who aren’t teachers, I mean, I would always, um, think about, you know, is there a way if you’re interested in taking your job abroad? Because there are a lot of opportunities, a lot of different fields to earn more and save more abroad. And the cost of living is often lower. You know, it wasn’t for me necessarily in Singapore, but it’s still, um, because of the free housing and all the other benefits, it still made a a huge dent in my savings.
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Mindy: [00:14:56] Welcome back to the show with Amy Meekly.
Scott: [00:14:59] Can I ask one more question about that that so if someone’s paying for your housing and they’re paying you a top salary and they’re providing a lot of other benefits and flying you back to the US on a regular basis. That can’t be cheap. Who who pays that? Is that is these elite private schools where parents are are are paying premium tuitions or are they public schools over in in Asia?
Amy: [00:15:21] Yeah, they’re private schools. Mostly, a lot of the clientele are foreign business owners or, you know, government. I mean, we had a lot of embassy kids sometimes, people, um, kids of UN, WHO, those kind of. So sometimes it’s part of a package if someone’s moved abroad and and that’s what they’re getting as part of their family package by the company.
Scott: [00:15:42] Okay, so, so we we have a very low expense profile, especially later on in the years of the journey. We have access to kind of traditional investments and it sounds like you just invested in index funds for the most part, um, as you got going with this?
Amy: [00:15:55] So mostly index funds. I did a little bit of syndications with my sister. She had a company, so I was doing some with real estate, but primarily index funds.
Scott: [00:16:02] Awesome. And and when did you discover the financial independence concept? And and how did that change uh if anything the way that you are approaching wealth building?
Amy: [00:16:12] I discovered it quite late. Um, so I had taken three sabbatical years. Uh, one after I left Japan and I traveled for a year and then I went back to grad school. And then after working in India for, and I worked in Singapore for six years. So I’ve been teaching internationally for 10 years and I took another two sabbatical years. And um, I would have thought that I would have discovered it at that point. You know, I was living among expats in Bali. Um, but it wasn’t until I went back to my job, um, international teaching and I got a job in Bangkok and I was really burned out at that point. I think taking two years off and going back into the hectic, uh, teaching world, you know, where I felt like my job was never done. I was always taking home grading and planning and, um, even though these schools have great benefits, I was, um, I’m a bit of a perfectionist and so I always, I I just spent a lot of time on the weekends and the evenings working a lot. And I really saw that I didn’t want that for my life anymore. So it wasn’t until 2019, um, when I went back to working, um, that I discovered the FIRE movement.
Mindy: [00:17:13] And how did you discover financial independence?
Amy: [00:17:15] I stumbled across it. One night I was just really burned out and tired of and I I had been an aggressive saver my whole career. And so I was googling like how much money do I need to retire. I ran across a video of Pete and then I went down the rabbit hole of his blog and I got so excited. I was like a fire evangelist. went in, saw one of my friends um from work and told her about the fire movement. She said, you know, my friend, he’s taken a year off. I used to work with him in Santiago at an international school. He’s coming through next week. You should meet him. and it turned out that was Scott Barrett, Brad Barrett’s brother. And so when I met, um, Scott Barrett in the parking lot in Bangkok, he said, listen to this ChooseFI podcast. And so then I went down that rabbit hole. And so that really saved me because I was really struggling, you know, with thinking like, I I didn’t know how much money I needed. And I really, the fire concepts known learning about the 4% rule, realizing I was a lot better off than I thought, uh, gave me a lot of hope. And I had already spent two sabbatical years in Bali and so I knew how much that life cost me and I realized I don’t have to continue to do this job for so much longer.
Scott: [00:18:22] When you were, um, thinking about this as well, did did you pay into Social Security with this international employment um on there? Is there still eligibility for that, or is that was that not factored at all into your FIRE calculations?
Amy: [00:18:35] It was when I was in India because that school is, it’s a, an embassy school that was set up by the US government in the fifties and so that was part of the payment package is they paid into social security for us. Um, but, you know, when I worked in Singapore, when I worked in Japan, um, when I worked in, uh, Thailand, that was not factored in.
Scott: [00:18:55] Okay. So, so how did you think about that component? You know, like, I think a lot of a lot of FIRE folks are like, well, you know, I’ll also have some Social Security later in life if if things go really poorly there. But that that sounds like that’s not in your calculation. Were you more conservative as a result of that? Or did anything change because of the expat and international status?
Amy: [00:19:12] Yeah, I was more conservative. I mean, I will get some social security later and I’ve done my 40 credits or whatever, but I, it’s not as much as someone who would have stayed in the US for the whole time. But I think the overall benefit, you know, in other areas, um, outweighed it.
Mindy: [00:19:27] I’m gonna jump in and disagree with Scott for a second because I think that the majority of FIRE adherents are not counting on social security. It’s like a a safety net that they don’t think about. Um, I think there’s been a lot of misunderstanding and misinformation about the social security uh, as a whole, like the program as a whole. Um, I have I have vocally questioned, you know, is Social Security even going to be around when I’m retiring? Yes, it is. Probably not in its current iteration, but it’s still going to be around. So, I but there’s so many people who are like before me, um, where I didn’t understand how Social Security worked, that I think there’s a lot of people in the FI community who aren’t counting on it. Um, I don’t have it included as part of my FI number, so it’ll just be a bonus when I get it, but, um, I think there’s a lot of people in Amy’s situation with, you know, even if they have been working in America, you retire at age, you know, 25, 35, 45, you don’t have all, you have all that time that you’re not earning into or you’re not paying into the social security system, so your benefits withdrawals are going to be a lot lower to begin with.
Amy: [00:20:37] Amy, what what uh, how long into your career, how long post-FIRE and how old were you when you retired?
Amy: [00:20:43] Yeah, I I fired at 45. I had been teaching abroad for 16 years at that point.
Scott: [00:20:48] Okay. And so, so this is not, you know, yes, you you were a great teacher and earned, you know, went into these elite schools, but this was not an elite income generation story even with those those items there. There were some some good benefits. There was essentially no benefit that were at play in a in a in a in terms of long-term planning. There’s no pension involved here. There’s no social security uh component coming or whatever. This is all just basically cash for the most part that you accumulated and then invested in order to begin living off of uh this this what sounds like a wonderful international lifestyle you’re recording from Bali right now, is that right?
Amy: [00:21:22] Actually I’m not. I’m in the US. So Mindy and I just got off the Fintax cruise and um, I came to spend some time with my mom because she just turned 84 yesterday, so, yeah, I’m in the US at the moment.
Mindy: [00:21:34] Happy birthday, Amy’s mom.
Amy: [00:21:35] Thank you.
Scott: [00:21:37] Well, could you tell us a little bit about this portfolio and how does it, what are the mechanics of it? How do you how do you set it up to enable the FI lifestyle?
Amy: [00:21:45] Yeah, initially I invested in target-date funds, um, because I read Andrew Hallam’s book. This is before I knew about the the FIRE movement. And, you know, that seemed very easy. It just becomes more conservative as I age. But since learning about the FIRE movement, I’ve mostly done, you know, VTSAX and VTI. Um, I’ve done a little bit of the small cap and a little bit of international, mixed a few things in to diversify a bit. Um, but mostly I’m in I still got some target-date funds and my VT VTI is, those are my biggest holdings. I’ve never tried to stock pick. Um, you know, other than doing a little bit some syndications with my sister, I’ve never done um as much real estate, I’ve sometimes regretted that in a way, but it always seemed quite complicated, um, since I was living abroad, and I’ve never purchased a house in the US at all. So, um, yeah, that’s, that’s my portfolio. It’s pretty simple.
Scott: [00:22:37] Is it essentially all in stocks or is there any bond component to your portfolio?
Amy: [00:22:40] Yeah, because a target-date naturally has bonds built into it as well, right? It’s got some international and domestic bonds and and then I’ve purchased some of my own like just a total bond index as well. But I am I feel pretty confident. I mean also I don’t have children and so I probably am a little bit more of an aggressive, um, investor, you know, I have a smaller bond allocation than, you know, sometimes they say, you know, 110 minus your age, that kind of thing. I have a I have a more aggressive allocation than that. I think I’m more like 80% stocks, or, you know, index funds versus bonds. But then I’ve got a pretty a hefty cash allocation too that I’ve got in high interest savings account, which I kind of consider like a bond.
Mindy: [00:23:24] Ooh, okay. Why do you have this cash in a high yield? W, why do you have this cash?
Amy: [00:23:31] I think I felt like it was just similar to a bond in a way. So it it, it gives me security to know that if the market drops, that I’ve got that there. And then also I need that in a way while I’m about to purchase some property in Bali, a 25-year lease. So that’s part of the reason. And then I’m, you know, I’m running retreats in Bali as well, which required requires a lot of upfront cash. Um, so that’s part of the reason.
Scott: [00:23:56] How much is this cash position in terms of your annual spending?
Amy: [00:23:59] Good question. I would say over a year of annual spending. Probably more like a year and a half. So I probably need to get some of that invested.
Scott: [00:24:07] Another question here. Have you sold stocks yet to fund this early retirement in the three years since you’ve retired?
Amy: [00:24:13] I haven’t funded, I haven’t sold much yet. Um, primarily, my well my father passed away this last year. So I got a little, um, not he didn’t have a huge retirement, but I got a a little bit of money from that. So I haven’t needed to sell at this point and because I had a heavy cash cushion, that helped as well.
Mindy: [00:24:32] What point do you think, in terms of like annual or monthly spending, do you think is enough cash and you can start investing? Or you’re like, six months or nine months or a year and then anything over that you would invest or when it gets below that, you would start stockpiling cash again.
Amy: [00:24:51] I think a year for me personally. I know, I know it’s often said like six to nine months of, you know, for your emergency fund or whatever. But because I don’t have a job, I like to have a year in cash, honestly. And as long as it’s invested in a high interest savings account, you know, it’s still earning, mine’s earning a little like a, I think 5.1% something like that. So it’s not that much different. I mean, of course it is, but for me it gives me the peace of mind that I can sleep well at night, you know, I’ve got that cash sitting there and of course I’m going to need to deploy some of that soon for the house and villa in the rice paddies that we’re about to sign on. So, yeah, I think a year is it makes me feel safe.
Mindy: [00:25:32] Yeah, and there’s no wrong answer. I’m just I’m just wondering. We we find that when we’re interviewing people who are uh entrepreneurs, they tend to have a larger cash cushion and people who are traditionally employed or well over their five number tend to have less of a cash cushion because it it just seems like it’s just because they have so many different buckets to pull from. But ultimately, you have to be able to sleep at night. If you took that whole one year of cash and threw it in the stock market because that’s what you’re supposed to do and then all of a sudden the stock market went down a little bit, you won’t be able to sleep at night. What’s the point? Have it in cash.
Amy: [00:26:08] I mean, another thing I’m saving for is just this, you know, I’m planning to get Australian permanent residency, and that’s a big expense as well. So, I think I’ve kept some money out for for that.
Mindy: [00:26:18] Okay, my dear listeners, we have a request. We want to hit 100,000 subscribers on our YouTube channel and we need your help. While we take a quick ad break, can you please hop on over to youtube.com/biggerpocketsmoney and make sure that you are subscribed to this channel. Stay tuned for more after this quick break.
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Mindy: [00:29:34] Thanks for sticking with us. Are you planning on moving to Australia? I know their real estate is super expensive.
Amy: [00:29:39] It is, and not anytime soon. You know, I mean, we’re signing a 25-year lease because you cannot buy a property in Bali, it’s always going to stay in the Balinese hands. So we’re signing a 25-year lease on this villa in the rice paddies, uh, but we do want to eventually, when we’re much older, retire to Australia when we’re in our, maybe in our eighties or I don’t know when, but, but it’s the health care is very good there. And so I think it’s a good investment to get my permanent residency and my partner is Australian, so that’s kind of part of our plan as well.
Scott: [00:30:06] I watched a Steve Irwin video recently where he discovers the top 10 most dangerous snakes and luckily for him all 10 of them are right here in Australia. That was terrible. But that’s a uh, that that’s a definitely a a risk factor, I think, that’ll tell you about.
Amy: [00:30:21] A lot of dangerous animals, but at least they’ve got good health care, so if something happens, you know, you’re covered.
Scott: [00:30:26] Going back to your portfolio and the design here, so you have a year of cash, you’re de-risking your housing for the next 25 years with a, what sounds like a large upfront payment. And what in terms of your annual spending, are you right at the 4% rule, or do you spend considerably less or more than that amount?
Amy: [00:30:46] I spend more like 3% a year, um, roughly I would say. I last year I lost track of it. I mean last year I had a horrible year. My father passed away, I went, like I’ve been very meticulous about, you know, checking my spending and and tracking every day, but last year I completely lost track and I spent way more money than than I normally would. Um, but yeah, I would say on average, if you don’t consider last year, probably more around the 3% and three and a half percent range.
Scott: [00:31:15] When you are in Bali and you’re not having the other craziness you had to deal with last year, for example, what does Tuesday look like for you?
Amy: [00:31:24] Well, Tuesday, I wake up often and, you know, we have a beautiful place. We had lived in this villa in the rice patties before. So I know exactly what that’s going to look like when we move into it. We’re renovating it since we get it. But it’s it’s such a beautiful environment. So like just to sit on my on my balcony and have a cup of tea and look out at the cranes flowing across uh flying across the rice patties. Um, I’ll often get on my scooter, go to, I love hot yoga. It feels so good. And so even people say, you do hot yoga in Bali? I like, yes, I love it. You just feel so good to sweat it out. So I’ll often get a hot yoga. There’s so many events going on every single day. So I never get lonely because there’s a lot of entrepreneurs who’ve moved there from Europe, from the U.S., Australia. So there’s such a dynamic, inspiring group of people around me. It’s I feel like it’s the perfect place to fire in a lot of ways. It’s a very nice lifestyle and the quality of life I have and the quality of friends I have is so good. Um, and then so mostly I’m doing something in the evening. I’m meeting with friends for dinner or you know, there’s I love to play games. so you there’s a weekly like games activity I go to. So there’s a lot to do.
Mindy: [00:32:31] Amy, you mentioned some sabbaticals when you were still working. What led to you taking them and what did you do during your sabbaticals? How long were they?
Amy: [00:32:40] So when I left Japan, I’d been working in Japan for four years and I had, I think I had $20,000 saved. So this was 2005. and I spent mostly time in Southeast Asia and India, backpacking around. I mean, I was taking the second-class sleeper train across India. I had the best time, you know, I was budget traveling, but like the memories I created were incredible. Um, how much it opened my eyes to the world was phenomenal. I did also spend about a month in Europe during that time. So it was about eight months. And then I went back and started my grad program. And thankfully, because of the, you know, the $20,000, it went quite far because I was frugal and then I was able to pay for part of my grad school with some money left over from that. And then I also got a job as a graduate student teacher, so I was able to that helped pay for part of my grad school as well. But, um, so that was an eight months traveling mostly and then personally getting ready for grad school. Um, and then my second sabbatical, I left India and I planned to take a year off. I was planning to go around Africa traveling. And I went to Bali for a personal growth course and it really changed my life. Um, I had been single in Asia for over 16 years and I, that work helped me to heal a lot of my relationship with, you know, my father, I mentioned earlier, my father left when I was 12. And I really had a wound there, just not really trusting men. And I always kind of felt like I’m strong and independent. I can go anywhere in the world. I can travel, you know, second-class sleeper as I mentioned, like I’m I’m a tough independent traveler, but I’d really um it was a way to just keep myself guarded. And um that personal growth course helped me to realize that like deeply I was also lonely and through that work I was able to release a lot of that um, unhealed relationship with my father and build a trust for men again, and I called in a partner. I met my partner there. So I ended up staying two years in Bali. I never went to Africa and traveled around as I planned. And I realized what I wanted instead of being on the go seeing new places all the time, checking things off my list, that wasn’t appealing to me anymore. So you asked about travel earlier, Scott. It’s like, I’m happiest when I’m in Bali. I’ve got my routine, I’ve got my friends. Um, I love having a sense of home and I still a do love travel, but I’m not as interested in being on the go all the time. Um, so those two years, I was I was assisting that woman who was running retreats in Bali and just living my best life, really.
Scott: [00:35:12] That’s how I feel about travel as well. Like I’m happiest at my home in the suburbs of Denver that backs right up to the mountains and I can go running on trails and like, like biking around there, you know, it’s always like whenever I leave home, I’m like, ah, I’m going somewhere that’s, how could it be quite like like home over there. And I think that’s just different, um, but for the uh for a lot of folks who do dream of that travel. For me, it’s just different. Maybe maybe it’ll change in 10 years and 20 years, and I’ll be like, nope, that’s not what I want anymore. But love that, um, love that perspective on there. Um, about it. And it sounds like you also got plenty of travel in, like you described, um, earlier earlier in life.
Amy: [00:35:50] Yeah, every time I leave Bali, I’m like, I don’t want to go. You know, I mean, even though I’m coming, I’m excited to come home to see family or, you know, those kind of things, there’s a part of me that’s like, I really enjoy my life in Bali, God. I don’t really want to go. So, yeah, it’s it’s a, it’s a good problem to have, really.
Mindy: [00:36:05] Yeah, you live in paradise. Why would you want, like people go there on purpose. Why would you want to leave there to go to other places that are like paradise light?
Scott: [00:36:14] We have hot yoga in Denver too. I just have to go indoors um for it.
Amy: [00:36:18] Yeah, all yoga in Bali is hot yoga. There’s a lot of yoga in Bali. That’s a good thing. It it attracts people coming for like mindfulness and yoga and so there’s it’s a really healthy lifestyle there. It attracts a lot of healthy people. So it’s not it’s not so much of this drinking culture unless you go to the southern beaches that are party places, but generally it attracts really good people trying to optimize their life.
Mindy: [00:36:36] You reached fye in 2019, or no, you discovered fye in 2019. You’ve been, you’ve been retired for three years and that kind of coincides with when you started putting on the FI Freedom Retreat in Bali. But you were fye, like you won. Why are you starting to work again? Why why what made you want to put on the FI Freedom Retreat?
Amy: [00:36:57] I think I wanted a sense of purpose and community is so important to me. And I think, you know, when I was in Bangkok and I was really facing burnout in the pandemic, I was really feeling lonely for community and I was hearing about all the great events in the US and thinking, there’s such a need for that in Asia. You know, there’s nothing on that side of the world, um related to the fire community. So I wanted, I knew how much living abroad had changed me and opened my eyes to see how other people live and so I wanted an opportunity to build a fi event on that side of the world for people who live on that side of the world to be able to easily come to. And then I also wanted an event that people from the US could come to and, you know, see what it’s like to live in Asia and maybe open their eyes to possibility, to seeing how good life can be. You know, it’s not perfect. I don’t want to oversell it, but for my perspective, like the quality of life I have there is incredible. So it was, you know, a desire for community really, a passion project more than anything.
Scott: [00:37:58] Awesome. Where can people find out more about that?
Amy: [00:37:59] Yeah, they should go to fifreedomretreats.com. So that’s fi, f i, freedom retreats with an s dot com. And the last, so I, I usually put on one event per year. So I put, I’m got one event in early September, uh, 2025 that sold out when I launched it in eight minutes. So I couldn’t believe that. There were a lot of people who said I was on the website ready to buy and I couldn’t buy it. Um, so I went ahead and opened up a second event this year, which is happening in late September, the 26th through the 30th and that will launch on March 1st. Um, but if listeners are interested in attending, I would recommend that they’re on the website at the time that tickets launch so that they can make sure they get a ticket. So definitely check out the website and note that time and calendarize it because they will go go fast, I anticipate.
Scott: [00:38:51] Is there hot yoga involved?
Amy: [00:38:52] There’s no hot yoga. There is morning yoga. There’s a lot involved. I’m, I wouldn’t subject everybody to that because it’s it’s my thing, but it’s not everybody’s thing. But there is an optional yoga session every morning before the retreat starts. And I mean, it’s, it’s longer than most fie events. It’s also smaller than most fie events. A lot of people come over early. So they’re hiking the volcano, they’re Biking through the heartlands of Bali, you know, we go rafting afterwards, we go to an island afterwards, we go snorkeling, um, we get scooters, you know, you can take scooter lessons and get scooters and ride around the islands together. So the event is five days long, but in reality, we’re spending more like two weeks together and the relationships go so deep because it’s a smaller group. It’s an international group. We get a lot of, you know, people from Australia, New Zealand, the UK, Canada. So it makes it really fun, um, to meet people from different parts of the world in the FI community and doing all these fun adventures together is just naturally a bonding experience. And then I really want my event to honor Bali as well. So we, I show them like, we go to, you know, unique things in Bali that you wouldn’t necessarily see a a tourist.
Scott: [00:39:59] And and this event, it’s sold out and would would sell out, um, otherwise here. So what I want to call out an observe here is you you’ll talk to a lot of fi people and they’ll have something like this. Twice a year you put on an awesome event. Are, does that disqualify you from retirement um by the uh early retirement police that are all over the internet um to talk about this. I I believe no. Like you just really love that and you put it on a couple times a year and you’re compensated for it because it’s a lot of work um for it. But it’s not really the the end story. Many, if not most people who fire will after a period of years, do something to that end, I believe, over time and that’s just a byproduct of the reality of being FI. Just an observation that I wanted to make here because that that, you know, I don’t think you’re like, not coming on here to promote an event that would otherwise not sell out um for this. It’s just this is this is a this is an actual piece of your fi story that is very common to a lot of people in the space.
Amy: [00:40:56] Yeah, it definitely gives me a lot of purpose and, you know, a lot, part of my purpose is also to benefit the Balinese people. So, um, you know, I know Mindy knows about this and you and Carl generously donated, um, but you know, we were raising money for, you know, a domestic violence shelter there in Bali. And I was just incredibly impressed with the FI community and just so honored. Um, I raffled off a free ticket last year or for the first event, and, you know, we raised $22,000 in two weeks for this domestic violence shelter. This woman, she’s she’s phenomenal. and I have her speak every year. Like I always want to have a Balinese speaker there. Um, but, you know, when you hear her story of what she’s been through in her life and then how she’s used that to help and this makes me emotional, but how she’s used that to help so many women and children escape domestic violence. It’s it’s so inspiring. So whatever I can do to bring people together, to create, you know, an an incredible life-changing transformational experience that people are going to remember for the rest of their life, and then also to really honor and benefit the Balinese people in culture, you know, I’m this is part of my purpose. Um, I would get bored otherwise. You know, there’s only so many hot yoga glasses I can do.
Scott: [00:42:05] Well this is why I get so passionate about what we do at Bigger Pockets Money is because, you know, folks like yourself that go on to become financially independent, typically are creative, smart, disciplined, have a decades long time horizon. And once retirement happens, there’s a an intent to live modestly and well and then the the itch to somehow give back or create good in the world, uh, creates surprising, really positive societal benefits, like what you exactly what you just described there, which is so awesome. Like that’s really the the, you know, we dangle the the Bali and the the margarita on the beach uh uh thing out there as the carrot that’s a kids people motivated and they want to leave their job and do that. But really the reality is that as decades progress and people become fie, they do they tend to to do much more of the things that you’re talking about here on an overall basis. And it’s just so wonderful to see that. So I love it and and grateful for for all you’re doing um on that part of the world. You said you had a really hard year last year um for this. Can you tell me a little bit about how financial independence eased that or or made it more, you know, what what was it like to go through that as someone who is FI versus what it have been like for someone who who wasn’t? Did you ever thought about that or have any thoughts in response to that question?
Amy: [00:43:20] Yeah, I’m, well, just to give listeners a little bit of a context, you know, it was a lot of, um, tough things that kind of pulled up at once. So my father, I mentioned that my father passed away, and then I was in the U.S. a lot of time, you know, caregiving before he passed away and then dealing with his financial matters and his personal belongings and funeral and graving and all of that. So I got back to Bali with two and a half months to plan a wedding. And I thought, well, I’m an event organizer, I can do that. Um, and then my mom decided, you know, with my dad’s death, she wanted to come, but she’s 84 and chronically dizzy and, you know, rheumatoid arthritis and that was going to be a really difficult journey for her. So I was already anxious about the wedding and then her coming added a lot, you know, I was spending a lot of time trying to get her in business class, get her a mobility scooter and all of these things. And then I got dengue fever before the wedding, um, and I wasn’t yet done planning the wedding. Um, and then I think there were some things going on, you know, with hormones as well because I’m perimenopausal. So there was just there was just a lot of things and I wasn’t sleeping and and I basically, you know, had a high anxiety attack. Um, so I had to cancel the wedding right before my mom flew. Um, so, you know, during that, it was a really a dark night of the soul, really. Um, it was the most difficult year of my life. Um, you know, FI just knowing I didn’t have to go into a job was huge. It was huge. And I’m so grateful to the to the FI movement to being financially independent, you know, because it’s helped me on two occasions, you know, when my, when my father had a stroke and when I was able to walk away from my job in Bangkok and say, you know, I’ve saved a lot these two years, but I want to go back and, and more time with family and have location and time freedom, you know. Um, and then this during this mental health crisis, do not have to go in. I couldn’t, I physically couldn’t have gone into a job. You know, I wasn’t sleeping for prolonged periods of time. Um, and I think part of the anxiety was also it was like, I couldn’t show up for my own wedding and then I worried about can I show up for my retreat? Because you know, that had sold out quickly last year, but I thought maybe I can’t even show up for my retreat. And so even after the wedding passed, I was still thinking like, when is this going to end? You know, because it was hard for me to know in that dark place if I would ever come out of it. Um, and I’ve never been in a place that that that low where I wasn’t able to actually function in a lot of ways. Um, so it was really challenging. So I think having that financial security, you know, I was doing a little bit of tutoring online before and I had to let that go. Um, but just knowing that I didn’t have to worry about paying my bills and I was in Bali and I had all these incredible, it’s the number one place in the world for personal growth and development. So I had a lot of amazing therapists from all over the world there and I was able to get help and just throw money at the problem, and not have to worry about a wedding that I fully funded that I couldn’t attend, you know, so it wasn’t an expensive year for me last year. Um so I’m really grateful to FI for that. It would have been a lot more challenging without so without that money.
Mindy: [00:46:13] Yeah, so many people that I’ve spoken to about the concept of financial independence and, you know, hey, you can retire early or you know, you’re saving in advance for your retirement to give yourself more options, they say some variation of, I love my job or I don’t want to put restraints on myself and my spending or even I’m young, I’ll think about retiring early later. And they’re so missing the point. You are not even close to the first person that I’ve talked to who said, there’s no way I could have gone back to a job while I was dealing with this particular situation. If I hadn’t been financially independent, I don’t know what would have happened. And the point is not to retire so that you never have to work again. The point is to give yourself so many more options in the future. And I, I hate that you had all of that everything piling up on you at once and then, you know, at the end, hey, how about one more thing? I didn’t even know you got Dengue fever. Uh, yikes. But to to keep piling and piling and, you know, that’s I don’t want to, you know, make it sound like you’re the only person that’s ever had to deal with a lot. You’re not. But then on top of all of that, you have to go to a job every day or risk, you know, the income that you have that allows you to live your life. So I just think that financial independence is so much more than just quitting a job you don’t like.
Scott: [00:47:29] I am totally unapologetically pro-FI for the reasons you just described there. And then people say like live your best life, all that, or you know, even even Remit’s thing, live your rich life. you know, the fact that if you’re making a smart decisions and piling up a lot of money over here, gives you the option to defray future risk. I mean, I mean that could be way more valuable to someone than whatever that, you know, that 10 or 15% or 20% extra spending right now could could mean. So I I think there’s a there’s a lot of advantages and very little risk um for future regret to pursuing FI relative to what kind of some of the mainstream pundits have begun to say. And I think Amy, your outcome here is just so it’s it’s so important from several different from several different angles here. I mean, it it it made the worst year of your life less bad. It makes most of the days way better. It allows total freedom and optionality. You are giving back to the community and you are allowing your your creativity and, and what your passion to come through with what is essentially now a a very small business that but that could if you ever wanted to, probably be much bigger at some point. And so I just think it’s, it’s awesome to hear your story here, the good and the bad for inspiration for other people.
Amy: [00:48:47] Thank you. And I guess I would just say to listeners like no matter where you are on your financial journey, whatever you do to build up your emergency fund, to save your, you know, your first 50,000 or your first 100,000, like you are giving yourself so much more freedom and flexibility. And it’s, you know, we always talk about, you know, the the sexy side of of fi, maybe, you know, like travel or time freedom or location freedom or all those kind of things, but it is really for for the tougher times in life. And, you know, I’m so grateful for for this community, um, for for all the support I’ve been given. You know, this is the most caring, supportive community. I could ever imagine, just really, people who think outside the box and, you know, they’ve sat down and looked at my spreadsheet with me and and helped me with my numbers and that’s given me so much more assurance and, um, feeling of security around my numbers from coming from a place of scarcity in childhood.
Mindy: [00:49:37] Do you feel secure about your numbers?
Amy: [00:49:39] I do, a lot. You know, and I honestly have to say like, I’m grateful for everything that happened for me this, that happened to me this year. You know, I’m grateful for that mosquito that bit me and gave me dengue fever, because one thing was, I learned a lot about my psyche. You know, and I really had to dive into, I guess it put it in perspective. You know, like I’ve always been so frugal, but when I was really just trying to survive and I didn’t really even know what was going on with me. I couldn’t even articulate there for a while, like I couldn’t, I wasn’t, I totally cut myself off from everybody because I felt so much shame. you know, I I knew I could just throw money at the problem. And so I did. I threw a lot of money at the problem. And it really was good for me. So yeah, I feel like I did a lot of work this year. I spent a lot of money this year. So I wouldn’t trade it.
Mindy: [00:50:28] You spent a lot of money because you had the money to spend and you got such a reward out of it and that’s another aspect of FI. When you are living paycheck to paycheck and you, you don’t have anything saved up, you can’t handle an emergency or a crisis or, you know, any of this. You just have to keep go, go, going and and hope for the best. And but instead, you have the ability to stop, put everything on hold, even if you lose your deposits, even if you, you know, lose money while you’re doing this, now you can focus on you, and that’s really the best part of this whole journey.
Amy: [00:51:02] Yeah, thank goodness for FI. That’s all I can say. And this community. Thank you for all that you do as well.
Mindy: [00:51:08] Thank goodness for FI. It’s absolutely, the best choice I ever made was to not spend every dime and instead start investing. Amy, what is the biggest mistake you have made on your financial independence journey and what advice would you give to others so that they could avoid that same mistake?
Amy: [00:51:25] My biggest financial mistake was probably being so obsessive about my savings and investing and and looking at my monthly net worth. I mean, I was, I had an unhealthy relationship with money for a lot of years. and I think there were things I missed out on. I mean, luckily I still traveled a lot, but there are a lot of things that I didn’t do that I wish I would have done. So I think I would encourage listeners to balance more and even if it takes, you know, more time to get to FI, if you’re enjoying the journey, I think that’s more important than getting to FI faster.
Mindy: [00:52:01] I love it and also feel way seen there Amy so thanks for calling me out too.
Amy: [00:52:07] But I didn’t mean to call you out, I was calling myself out.
Mindy: [00:52:10] No, that’s that’s probably one of my biggest mistakes as well is not having a healthy financial healthy relationship with money. Um, and I I think as more people talk about that, the more people realize, yeah, that’s me too and let’s start changing that because that doesn’t go away overnight. Did your financial relationship go away overnight? Did you all of a sudden embrace spending money?
Amy: [00:52:33] Definitely not. And I think it’s taken me some time really to be fired to see like, oh, my money still grows. Like even though I’m, you know, spending more on eating out and going to some more events, like, and traveling, you know, coming back and forth to the US and Australia, you know, my money is still, um, growing all the time. It’s still my net worth is increasing. So, yeah, it takes time.
Mindy: [00:52:54] It takes time, but you will get there. All right, Amy, this was super fun. Thank you so much for your time today. I really, really appreciate you. And where again can people find more about you and your Fi Freedom retreats?
Amy: [00:53:05] They can go to fifreedomretreats.com. And again, tickets are launching on March 1st. So if they’re interested in coming, I would love to have them. They can go and watch videos of what we’ve done on the previous retreats. It’s a really, really fun time together. Great people.
Mindy: [00:53:19] In person FI events are so important to helping you stay on the journey or explore what your life after you’ve reached financial independence looks like based on conversations with other people who are in it, who speak the language, who understand all the things that you have had to go through, and just want to help you out. It’s, it’s such an encouraging community. All right, Amy, thank you so much and we will talk to you soon.
Amy: [00:53:43] Thank you, appreciate you. Thank you, Scott. Thank you, Mandy. See you later.
Mindy: [00:53:47] Okay, Scott, that was Amy Meekly and that was her amazing financial independence journey as a teacher. What did you think?
Scott: [00:53:55] Well, Mindy, I, I think that the internet retirement police should go to town in the comments of this uh, of this YouTube video because she was, you know, single income, no kids, um, and because she did it internationally, uh, because she had some benefits there and because well after she fired without any plans whatsoever, her this relationship with her estranged father came into play back into play and allowed her to get a small inheritance. and and and and No, come on. This is the best. This is like this is fire. This is what it’s all about. This is this is someone who is a is a great example of like creative, interesting approach that was different. You have to take a different path. You the the person who is earning a median income with no advantages in a high cost of living area who does not have the ability or means to invest is not going to achieve fire. Every fire story or almost all of them will have a unique path that they’re they’re charting. And many of them are highly compatible with lots of fun lifestyle and engagements, lots of fun opportunities, and lots of creative ways to to end, you know, find yourself in your in your end state in your in your retired state, uh, like in a place like Bali. So, huge inspiration. Love the fact that she lives what is a what sounds like an awesome lifestyle, loves her Tuesday, and um, the fact that she’s involved in the community, starting to give back and starting a a small business um that’s just a passion project for her. I mean it’s just it’s just perfect. It’s what if we can make this outcome more achievable for even just a few more people, the work we’re doing here will be worthwhile at Bigger Pockets Money.
Mindy: [00:55:28] Yes, and you’reScott, you make a great point. I love that she’s honoring the Balinese culture and including the Balinese people in her retreat to kind of introduce people who aren’t from Bali into what Bali is all about and what makes Bali so amazing. Um, but yeah, her her story is super incredible and totally repeatable. She’s teaching English as a second language to schools in Asian countries. You can do that with adults, you can do that with kids. This is a repeatable path. You are taking your housing expense out of the equation. Isn’t that the biggest expense people have is housing? Um, now you’re just food and travel, but if your housing is provided by your employer, you’re probably going to be really close to your uh job where you could walk, you could take, you know, low cost public transportation, you could ride a bike, you could do something to get you there uh very low cost. So now, out of your three big expenses, Scott, you’ve taken away two and you only have food. But again, you’re in um Southeast Asia is a lower cost of living place. So now you’ve got that is kind of like in half. I well, I should have done that with a different finger because I can’t show my thumb halfway. But you’ve got so little expenses, you can just take all the money that you’re making and plow it into your investments. Amy discovered the concept of financial independence in 2019 and uh two years later she was retired.
Scott: [00:56:56] One of the things that was going through my head is just like, how how replicable is that story for a US-based teacher who earns less income, um, likely doesn’t have the same benefits there. I mean, I I think it’s much, I think it’s way harder Mindy. I mean, I think I think you can, you can bridge to it with, you know, some smart planning, you know, maybe maybe if you corporate real estate for example in the summers or some some sort of side hustle that can that can get going there, but, uh, you know, wow, that it does seem like at least for those who are capable of getting, um, the the the the jobs in that kind of elite tier, these elite, you know, private schools potentially abroad, that that is definitely a a game changer there and something worth considering for some folks.
Mindy: [00:57:36] Well, how does an American based teacher repeat this? Simple, they they repeat it. They move to Bali, they move to Japan, they move to Singapore, and they they do the same thing that Amy did. Um, American teachers are criminally underpaid.
Scott: [00:57:51] Yeah, well, I I do want to challenge that one. I think I think that that’s another a good one for us to investigate with future episodes with teachers in the US because I think you can do it. Um I think it’ll just be much harder and you have to you really have to supplement what’s going on with the base case with some some extracurriculars in the summers um and and during some of those break the break periods that that are available, but yes, it will be harder for a US teacher. um, but there’s also a potential pension that vests after, you know, 10, 20 years. So around that same time, 43 year old age mark, maybe there’s an an opportunity to create a similar outcome. So just food for thought, something I want to explore with US teachers that are pursuing FI, reach out to scott@biggerpockets.com or mindy@biggerpockets.com if you want to share your story or or, you know, think through some of those things because we’d love to learn more about how teachers in the US can do that. Um but if you have a problem with Amy’s um story specifically, um I think Mindy cited the email address for creating um for that if you want to report her to the internet retirement police, you can email I don’t care at don’t bother me dot com. Right? Is that was that Mindy?
Mindy: [00:58:51] Yeah, or I don’t care at tell somebody else dot com.
Scott: [00:58:54] Yeah, there you go. That’s it. So yeah. Thank you.
Mindy: [00:58:57] All right, Scott, should we get out of here?
Scott: [00:58:58] Let’s do it.
Mindy: [00:58:59] That wraps up this episode of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. He is Scott Trench and I am Mindy Jensen saying, so long King Kong.
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