On today’s episode, we’re gonna be pulling your questions from the bigger forums. To trademark, I’m trademarking that particular term. Love it, made it up just now. And the Facebook group.
That’s right, Scott. I love doing these episodes because we get to really zoom in and get under the hood on a couple of real life and sometimes complicated financial situations. And today we’ll be covering health savings accounts versus flexible savings accounts, what are they? Is one better than the other? Should you have both? All those types of questions.
We’re going to get into all kinds of fun stuff like Amanda said. That will also include things like how to avoid, defer, or deal with capital gains taxes. We’re going to talk about when it’s acceptable to put no money down on houses. We’re going to talk about lending money to friends and family and whether you should do that or not. And we’re also going to talk about credit card um, uh, repayment and emergency funds, and when it’s proper to do one or the other. So it’s going to be a fun episode. All all fun topics, all controversial topics.
So stay with us. You’re going to want to listen to this one.
Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money Podcast. I’m Scott Trench, and with me today is my co-host, Amanda Wolf.
Hi Scott, it’s always great to be here. As always, we’re here to make financial independence less scary and less just for somebody else, to introduce you to every money story because we truly believe financial freedom is attainable for everyone, no matter where or when you’re starting.
Okay, let’s get started. The first question we have here comes from our forum and it reads, “My partner is planning on selling her condo. However, I am in the midst of purchasing my first property, and we plan on living together. So where can she move her money after selling in order to avoid capital gains taxes?” What do you think, Scott?
All right, a couple of frameworks that we have to work through to understand how to behave in the situation with our money, right? So first off is uh, folks need to become familiar, if you’re dealing with a situation like this, with a tax rule where if you have lived in a property for two of the last five years, you can exclude huge chunks of capital gains from that property. So for example, if you bought a home 10 years ago and you’re selling your condo now to move in with a significant other, the all of the gains for the last 10 years, up to $250,000 if you’re a single person, up to $500,000 if you’re married. And as Mindy Jensen recently discovered, one of our other co-hosts, you can actually put additional people on title and exclude up to 250,000 per person if you really want to get into the technical details there. Um, so this person may not have any capital gains tax and should go look that up and determine if that rule applies to them here.
If this is a rental property, there’s also an option to do what’s called a 1031 exchange. This is not a way to get around capital gains tax. It is deferring capital gains tax and you can take the equity in the property and place it in another property, um, uh, like a rental property, for example. So that would be another option to do that. If this person is not using a 1031 exchange and has lived there for less than a year, there’s a short term gain. And if they’ve lived there for more than one year, there’s a long term capital gain. So thank you Uncle Sam for the deep complexity uh of the situation and all of the scenarios that we as homeowners need to be aware of.
My bet though is that this person has a very simple situation where if they’re like most people, they’ve probably lived in this condo for at least two years and in the transition to a new property, my default is always heavily weigh the aption and deeply favor selling the property. You’re not going to get that tax free ability to harvest a gain like that in three or four years when the property rolls over and you can then take that cash and deploy it in an investment that you feel is the best one for you. And I feel much better about that in 99% of cases than just leaving it in the condo, for example, that probably wasn’t purchased as a thoughtful investment property um, five years ago whenever they moved in. What do you think about that, Amanda?
Yeah, so I guess my question to you then would be, where do you think she should be storing that money? Because you mentioned she should be investing it in something else since it likely wasn’t an investment property in the first place. So what would you recommend she invested it in um, once she does that?
Here at Bigger Pockets, I’d be like, buy a rinter property, right? So I would take that I would take that cash and put it into like a true rental property, like a small multi-family property or something like that, uh, nearby wherever she’s going to move to and that would be my preference.
Yeah, so I think it’s going to depend on a few factors. Like one, I want to know how old they are, what their goals are in life, um, are they prepared for retirement, um, do they have any other types of debt lying around out there? So all of those questions are ones that I would want to consider before I would go popping money into a a property. Um, so I think those are the things I would think about first, but you know me, like I’m I’m a big fan of uh, just setting it and forgetting it, putting it in the stock market uh type situation. So I think that’s probably what I would be doing.
Um, that’s probably a much better answer than mine about what to do with the with the money. So, uh, awesome.
Our next question is about loans and whether you should ever take out a loan in your name to help out a relative. Stick around and find out what we think right after this quick break.
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Welcome back to the show. All right, let’s go to the next question. Our next question is about taking a loan out in your name for a family member. “My mom has always struggled with finances. Recently, with the cost of living rising, she’s had trouble making her mortgage payments. My brothers who are 18 and 14 live with her. My whole life she’s only worked part-time and she’s no real reason for not getting a full-time job except that she says she will get too tired. Her health has gotten worse now and she’s had to pay more emergency health expenses. Because she does not qualify, she has asked me to take out a loan to help her while she plans to sell her house. She says that when she sells, she will pay me back and get herself out of this hole. I’m afraid selling the house is just a quick fix. Is there ever a time where it’s okay a loan to help someone else? What would you do?”
Oh my gosh. I have so many feelings that come up with this question. First of all, I’m imagining this person is like fairly young too and the fact that she has all of this pressure on her just like really hurts my heart because she has younger siblings and this is like she should be navigating her own life and like having to figure all this out like quite frankly just really sucks. Um, for me the like immediate answer is no, I would not take out a loan to help a family member. I would not take out a loan to help anybody really especially in a situation like that. I think that if you’re not good with the money you have now, having more of it later isn’t going to make you better with money. Um, so that is like my initial thought. In addition, I’m really against just lending money to people. I think you should either gift it if you have it or, you know, set that boundary and and not because and and not loaned out at all because I’ve just seen way too many relationships damaged that way or destroyed all together. So I know it’s so tough because they’re probably your favorite people in your whole life, but I would not recommend taking out a loan on her behalf. I would remember that you have to be your priority. Take care of yourself first and um, you know, maybe consider getting your your mom some some uh, you know, mental health help. It sounds like she probably has so much to manage and is just kind of letting things go down down the gutter that way. I don’t know what do you think Scott.
Yeah, I, I, I completely agree with your framework first, right? Don’t, don’t loan money to family or friends. Just if you’re going to go down that route, give them money and set it and forget it, right? A loan to a family member, uh, is problematic for so many reasons, not just because they won’t pay you back, but because also because it creates a power dynamic that I think is unhealthy inside of the family context. So, I’m, uh, completely on board with your your framework here and would not learn the money and I would consider gifting the money. That’s a hard conversation, but it will not get better in the future if that money is not paid back, uh, at some future point. If there’s a house involved, then the mother should be able to get a loan against the house or sell the house in order to get cash, um, to pay down these finances, but that would be my my interpretation. Maybe that’s heartless, maybe that’s tough, but I think that this is going to be a troubling situation that will spiral um, if we start taking out loans to finance things for other family members.
Absolutely. I think spiral is the perfect word for it too because, you know, to your point, once she takes out that loan, then what? Is she, it, it, I haven’t seen any moves being made to help pay that money back, right? So she’s not working a full-time job and you know, it it says here just because, you know, maybe her health is not great, but if if she’s made no strides up until this point to try to better her situation, why would she do that later? So I think she’s just really going to be putting herself in a worse position and I, I just wouldn’t, I wouldn’t do that and I feel, I just really feel for this person. It’s probably a hard thing to watch.
I, I agree and I think, I think it’s, I think it’s tough and I think it’s also like a philosophical item here is this person has written in their question that the mom only worked part time the whole life here and this is, you know, that’s really tough, right? This person is now going to be in trouble. They’re not gonna have enough to live a high a quality of life. Um, but there was also nothing that built up towards this moment. Is that now the next generation’s problem? I don’t think so for this person. I think they need to, they need to um say no, say I’ll help out where I can with small gifts if they so choose, but there’s no obligation to take out debt financing to resolve um their parents financing problems.
Absolutely. And I think that like is could also just bring up a whole other conversation around, you know, um, kids now needing to take care of their parents or, or you know, uh parents who haven’t prepared for retirement and now that burden is falling on them. So I feel like this is one specific situation but there’s so many other situations out there and I, I just want to say remember that you have to take care of you first because you cannot pour from an empty cup.
Okay, let’s go ahead and keep it moving. So our next question here is about buying a house with no down payment. The question reads, I’m 34, single and live in a high cost of living area. My income is $245,000 a year and it’s unlikely to increase significantly. My savings are $60,000 in an emergency fund and about $50,000 across my 401K, Roth IRA and HSA. Right now I’m paying $3,300 a month in rent and I’m able to save $4,000 a month and I’m putting into savings. I have no debt and I have a paid off car. I’m looking to buy a house in the $500 to $650,000 range. I do not have money for a down payment but I do have access to a zero down payment position loan if I choose to use it. It would take me another year or two to save a down payment and by then home costs could keep going up. This makes me want to buy now with zero down but is that irresponsible? What are the downsides here?
A lot here. Um, first, congratulations to this person for earning such a high income. They must provide really valuable services to someone. Um, the savings are $60,000, which is enough for a down payment in many situations. That would be enough for a 10% down payment on a $600,000 house, for example. Um, so I I think that that’s, like that’s in the emergency fund, I understand that, but that would also, like this person is a very responsible financial situation.
When I frame the what good looks like to me in terms of a financial position going into a home purchase, I think that one needs to have the down payment plus their emergency reserve, plus their, um, uh, uh, plus an emergency reserve of three to six months, ideally six months, maybe 10 to $15,000 at minimum with a house purchase. So this person has that, right? Even with a 5% down conventional or FHA loan, they would put down $30,000, easily have six months emergency reserves and probably have enough for any any um other repairs on top of that. So I’d say you can go for it uh in this particular situation.
I’m a little confused or concerned and hope that the $245,000 per year income is a relatively new phenomena because of the small relative net worth this person has to that income. Perhaps there were student loans in the past or something else that would explain the situation. Um, but if this person is truly able to save $4,000 per month plus another $3300 in rent, they can responsibly buy a house right now, I think. It’s just a question of whether it’s more economical to buy or rent and that comes down to if you’re ready to settle down for 10, 15 years, go for it.
Yeah, and I, I think the, the question though that she asked that I would love to hear your input on is that she’s afraid that um, the home costs are going to keep going up and is now a good time to buy. I feel like that is such a common question. Um, so use your crystal ball over there Scott and uh what do you what do you think about that?
Timing the market is impossible, right? So I will tell you this, the housing prices are either going to stay about the same, go up or go down over the next few years. So hopefully that’s very helpful um to this person. And I think that’s why like all we can do is say look, long term in housing prices are going to inflate, are going to appreciate around the level of inflation. So it’s going to be 2% per year, which is if the fed hits their target and probably closer to three, three and a quarter or three and a half percent, which is um, what the Case Schiller existing housing index has shown over a long period of time. So that’s what you should plan on in a long-term sense. That’s why if you’re going to live in a house for a long period of time, if you’re going to live in a place for a long period of time, it’s better to buy.
Because of high interest rates, um, and the rapid rise of them and the, the recent increase in interest rates that we saw over the last couple of years was not accompanied by a similarly large increase in rents. So right now that break even point, if it was seven years on average across the U. S, you have to live in your house for seven years for it to be better to buy than rent. It’s now pushing out to 12 or 15 years in many situations. But if you know you’re gonna live in a place for the next decade or two and you’re ready to settle down, buying a house can still be a better option than renting in many places. Um, but that that’s the bet that you’re making essentially, right? So the one thing you can control is how long you intend to live in the place and if you don’t intend to live there very long, you should rent and if you do intend to live there for a long time, you should buy. Of course, I think they should always house hack, so, but that that wasn’t a part of their question.
I love it. So is, let’s, we’ll assume that her $650,000 home is not a starter home and she’s probably going to be there for a while. So I think that’s some really good advice. And then I just have to add in that the savings that she does have that $60,000 in her cash savings, hopefully she is keeping that in a high yield savings account, um, just, you know, to try to beat inflation a little bit along the way. So if uh, you don’t know what that is, it’s just like a regular savings account kind of on steroid. So hopefully she’s got that in a in a high yield savings account.
So I want to actually chime in something else here uh on that note that maybe think of is right now if that person buys a house, they’re probably going to get a six and a half to 7% rate on their mortgage and the stock market, you know, has historically yielded between seven and 11%. We can get into a whole debate about which number to pick there. But let’s say we if we’re going on the conservative end of like seven and a half percent there, the opportunity cost between investing and paying off a mortgage early is very minimal at that point. And I’d wonder, I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on that, like would you say that this person once they buy the house with a 7% mortgage, should they just start paying off the mortgage and taking their guaranteed six and a half, 7% return or should they start investing in the stock market?
So I like to say that I, I, I think that you should invest in the stock market because, you know, history shows it’s returned about 10 to 11% over history or over the long term. However, the thing that I think people forget about is that you need to remember to actually go and invest that money because what I see too often is people then are like flush with cash and then they, you know, uh, elevate their lifestyle in ways that they hadn’t envisioned before and now they’re not paying down their house and they’re not investing the extra money. So if you are disciplined and you are going to actually invest the money in the stock market, I personally think that is the better route to go. Um, but I would say automate it, don’t trust yourself because having money can be fun. Uh, so at least go ahead and automate, automate those investments if you go that route, but that would be my choice.
Awesome. I, I I love it and this is one where we’ll we’ll we’ll disagree. I I agree with you from a mathematical perspective, you’ll be richer in 30 years on that, but I think that when the spread between the rate that the return you’re likely to get from a long-term equity investment and a guaranteed rate on the mortgage is this tight, I’m like, what am I going after here? I’m going I’m going for financial freedom early in life and a paid off house has no principal or interest payment and that means I can invest all of those cash flows that I’m not paying back into the market. And so at the end of 30 years, my spread is only about 1% different on the initial pool of cash. So let’s say I had a $500,000 mortgage, right? If I compound that for 30 years, that would be about, I think it would be about $5 million. And if I were to um, instead pay off the the property and then invest the P and I over that, I did the math on this the other uh the other day, it would be within about seven or eight percent of the end pool. So about 4.5, 4.6 million dollars at the end of that. and I’m like, hm, during that period maybe I sleep a little better, maybe I’m able to take another risk on something, maybe my cash that I have to generate from a future portfolio is much less because I have a paid off house. So, I don’t think there’s like a right answer to it, but I think it’s close enough where it’s like a fun debate at this point in time and it wasn’t from three or four years ago if you have an old interest rate.
Yeah, no, totally. And I think you make a really good point too, because going into retirement or you know, financial freedom, but not working if you will, right, no matter how old you are. Um, I I do think that having a mortgage can add an additional layer of complexity because you need somewhere to live, right? That’s kind of one of our basic needs in life. So I think that’s a really good argument too and um, yeah, I don’t I think I don’t know that there’s necessarily like a better answer than another. I think it just depends on your own personal circumstance and what makes you more comfortable.
All right, we’re going to take a quick break and hear a message from the show’s sponsors. But stick around because when we’re back, we’re going to break down the differences between HSAs and FSAs and we’ll tell you which we think is the better option.
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Welcome back to the Bigger Pockets Money Podcast.
Alright, next question comes from Facebook and it’s about HSAs. It reads, “I keep hearing about health savings accounts. Can someone explain to me the benefits of having this account? Is there an optimal age for starting one? And what is the benefit of opening an HSA over an FAS FSA which is called a flexible spending account or vice versa? Can we or should we have both?” Amanda, you want to take this one?
Yeah, I will say I am a big fan of the HSA, the health savings account. I like to say that it’s like this, you know, it’s a triple tax advantage like unicorn account. No other account out there exists like this. Um, and a lot of people don’t realize that it’s actually an investment account too. So it’s called a health savings account, but you can invest it as well. The limit is pretty low. So for 2024, if you are single and under 55, it’s 41.50, if you have a family, it’s 8300. So I think whenever the government is giving us these accounts with like real low limits, that means it’s some good stuff and we want to take advantage of it. So the cool thing about it is you put in your money tax free, so you’re not paying any taxes on the money you put in. You can invest the money and let it grow and then you’re not paying any taxes on that as well. And then when you go to pull it out for a qualified expense, you’re not paying any taxes on that either. So there’s no taxes at any point along the way and I don’t know of any other legal thing out there where you don’t have to pay taxes on any of the money. Do you Scott?
I think it’s like, it’s called by a lot of people and I agree with it, like the ultimate retirement savings account for the HSA because you’re going to spend the money on healthcare stuff, something that’s related to healthcare at some point in your life.
Exactly. And and the extra cool thing is that if you are someone who has the cash to pay for your medical expenses today and you are organized and keep those um receipts, you can actually reimburse yourself later in life as long as you have that HSA. So let’s say that you are 35 years old right now and you have your HSA and you are living that like dink life so you you got a couple extra bucks in your pocket, you’re paying for your medical bills, you’re saving them. Well, you can keep investing that money and then when you hit like 60 years old or 55 years old or whenever you want to repay yourself, you can actually go and pull that money out of your HSA to reimburse yourself from years and years ago. And in the meantime, you allowed your money to compound in the stock market. So I think it is just like the coolest account out there. So only those who are on a high deductible healthcare plan can participate in or can have an HSA. But I would say if you are on one of those, to definitely take advantage is my favorite account for sure.
Absolutely. Yeah. I I I think that that high deductible point, you know, is worth one more little level of depth there because that is something to consider. Like the healthcare plans that are that provide that are HSA qualified, that allow you then to contribute to an HSA, are worse, I’ll use that in air quotes here, because they have higher deductibles or higher out of pocket maximums. So some employers like this actually came up as a problem at bigger Pockets a few years ago. We offered a healthcare plan that we thought was excellent, right? It had a very low deductible and low out of pocket max as a result it was not HSA compatible. And so some employees actually like said no, we want a worse plan that’s more expensive for our company or that’s cheaper for bigger pockets to provide to them so that it would be HSA compatible and they were right and we offered that. Um and and that’s the one I use personally these days. And so it’s kind of interesting just to know like you will actually have to sign up for the worst healthcare plan depending on your employer in order to be HSA compatible. And that’s probably a good move if you’re healthy, if you have no reason to expect that there’s going to be a major um uh health event here.
And then the other part of this question was around the FSA, the flexible spending account. And the FSA is a tool that is typically not uh compatible with an HSA. You’re going to have to use one or the other. Um, and the FSA is I think much worse, it’s still a useful tool to some degree, but if you know you’re gonna have expenses, you can set aside certain dollars and use pre-tax dollars just like a IRA contribution for example, like a 401K contribution, to pay for medical expenses. So if you know like you’re gonna have some sort of recurring treatment or you know that you’re going to have a kid or something like that that you know is gonna be a medical expense that’s going to come up uh in the coming year, an FSA can be a good, an FSA with a low deductible health care plan can be temporarily or in some cases permanently better option than the HSA. But for most of us, HSA is an ultimate um retirement saving tool.
Totally, totally. And the other thing that I’ll add for the FSA, um, because before I really understood the difference between these, like years ago I signed up for the the best health care plan ever and I, I did the FSA is I kept forgetting to use it. And this is a, if you don’t use it, you lose it type of thing. So I basically just made a donation to the health care industry for a few years by putting money into this FSA. But um, yeah, just remember that if you are going to be putting money into it to not forget to actually go and use the funds because they do expire. They don’t, it depends on the company you’re with, sometimes it’s like at the end of the calendar year, sometimes they give you a, I think a few weeks into the new year to use it, but it they do expire unlike the HSA. So I wanted to actually add that differentiator too. The HSA you own it. So if you were to leave your company and go somewhere else or you, you know, reach financial freedom nice and early in life, the HSA stays with you unlike the FSA. The FSA, any funds you put in there, if you hadn’t used them, um, you you would lose it at that point.
That’s right. You got to really know what you’re doing and know you’re be able to plan with if you’re going to use the FSA instead of the HSA. I use both actually here and this is how I do it. We have a dependent care FSA at Bigger Pockets. So I can set aside up to $5,000 pre tax for child care and child related expenses and that is not hard to plan on using in a given year. Child care is much more expensive than that, but at least $5,000 of that go is paid out pre tax through my dependent care FSA, which is a subcategory of FSA and I am able to contribute to an HSA and max that out.
Yeah, I hear kids are pretty expensive. I feel like dogs, my dog child should be allowed, um, to fall under, under that umbrella, but unfortunately they don’t yet.
Well, we should just create a new product called the D-S-A, the dog savings account. Yes.
Perfect.
All right, I feel like I could talk about these all day, but let’s go into the next question, um, which is around credit card debt. So let’s dive into it. “About two years ago, I was met with some unforeseen financial circumstances which caused me to rely on credit cards for necessities since I had no savings. I ended up maxing them out. Luckily, I’m in a better position now and have managed to build up two months of emergency savings, which is around $10,000. I have about $8,000 in credit card debt. I could withdraw a
