Welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast, where I interview Tarek and Heather El Moussa from The Flipping El Moussas. You may have heard of this fantastic HGTV show. Hello, hello, hello. My name is Scott Trench and I am solo today. We’re bringing you a very special bonus episode of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. Um, it’s for those of you who didn’t attend BPCON, and we had an amazing fireside chat with Tarek and Heather and we decided to record the rehearsal of this chat and bring it to you here on the show. We’re going to cover everything from how Tarek and Heather started, how their businesses function, being HGTV and Netflix stars, and the advice they would give investors today. Um, and what I really appreciated the most about uh getting a chance to talk with Tarek and Heather is not just their obviously, you know, superstardom, um and they the incredible businesses they’ve built in the media space, but the really large scale business operation that’s going on across wholesaling, fix and flip, rentals, and now syndications in the real estate space and the sophisticated machine they’ve built. So a big privilege to talk to them today.
All right, I am here to make financial independence less scary. Less just for somebody else. To introduce you to every money story, because we truly believe financial freedom is attainable for everyone, no matter when or where you’re starting. Whether you want to retire early and travel the world, go on to make big-time investments in assets like real estate, start your own business, or understand the realities and the nuts and bolts of a large-scale real estate business brought to you by super famous HGTV stars. We’ll help you reach your financial goals and get money out of the way so you can launch yourself towards your dreams. All right, next up we have the Money Moment. Today’s Money Moment is more of a Bigger Pockets plug. Want to feel inspired and learn from the best? Join us next year at BPCON in Cancun. That’s right, you heard me, we’re taking our conference to Cancun. It’ll be out of this world. I mean, out of this country. Join me and some of the best investors around like Henry Washington, David Green, and Dave Meyer next year at our conference. Uh this year at 2023 was amazing. We ended up renting out Universal Studios as the uh end note and besides the partying and the awesome great times, we also had an a tremendous we had like 80 speakers, over 50 sessions, we had 75 different sponsors ranging from all different types of uh professionals like agents, lenders, property managers, insurance brokers, tax professionals and more, to software solutions like property management software, accounting software, off market deal finding, software, to syndicators, um to uh anything you can think of. It was super valuable and I just had a great time. Hope to see you there next year at Cancun where we rented out an all-inclusive resort for several days. Um looking forward to it.
Tarek and Heather, welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money Podcast. I’m so excited to talk with you today. Thanks so much for joining us.
Yeah, we’re excited to be here, Scott. How you doing today?
I am doing great. I get a chance to talk to you fine people. Um, well let’s just jump right into your business. Like could you tell us about your empire and what you do and your roles in that business?
Um, started off as a real estate agent, you know, 19, 20 years old, uh weathered the great recession after finding success at a young age. Um, and saw an opportunity in the market in 2010. I did a short sale deal. Had a first lien, second lien, third lien, IRS lien, HOA lien, all these liens. I ended up closing it after 11 months, I got a check for 7,000. Uh, the guy that bought it, painted the house, hired a gardener, cut the lawn hired a, or painted the house hired a painter, cut the lawn, hired a gardener and sold it a couple weeks later and made 130,000. And that was the exact moment that I realized I was on the wrong side of the real estate equation. So I started flipping houses in 2010 on a whim. Uh which everybody I knew uh to raise money from them and everybody said I was crazy, I was too young, it was too speculative. And finally I found someone dumb enough to give me money.
And what market did you start in? What market was this?
In Southern California. Um, and during my very first flip, and this is what people don’t know. During my very first flip, I got the idea to flip houses on TV. So I documented the process of the very first flip. Uh and then we I got the pilot for the series. Then I got a contract. The contract stated I had to flip 13 houses in 10 months, but I didn’t know how to flip houses and I didn’t have any money. So at the time, uh I wasn’t sure what to do. I called my lawyer, I said, ‘What’s the worst that can happen?’ He said, ‘Well, they could sue you.’ And uh I said they could take it, everything’s financed anyways. So I signed the contract, burned the boats, and figured out how to flip houses while filming a TV show. And and since then, uh that was 2010, today I’ve flipped uh almost a thousand houses. A majority of the business that we’re flipping uh we’re doing as in Southern California, Orange County, LA County, Riverside and uh San Bernardino County. Uh and then we also have out of state investments, own 200 rentals across the country, North Carolina, Oklahoma, uh Oklahoma, Georgia, um and then on top of that, I have home school education, teach people how to buy fix and flip houses, build rental portfolios. Uh I’m so excited about my new company TEM Capital as well as uh Heather’s new company HM Capital, which is real estate syndication. So together we’re buying multifamily real estates, uh self-storage. Uh and we’re also developing. On top of, you know, the real estate team I have with the agency, we have about 1400 real estate agents working with me. Um, and we have a production company and we have a home line and uh what else we got on it?
Well, we have um a few other things starting that we cannot talk about yet, but the newest is uh our home line called Home by Them. So that was more a passion project that Tarek and I, you know, we’re talking about for years we wanted to create and now it is a full-on business and we just launched uh two new products yesterday and we’re launching more coming up. So, really fun.
So, so we have all of these business, this sprawling business uh conglomerate. What are your roles day-to-day, each of ya, in this empire?
Man. And and that’s the challenges of entrepreneur, you know, at the end of the day like what what are we? We are brands, right? And we built our brands through the power of television by being in hundreds of millions of houses around the world. So our main focus is always brand oriented. But outside of that, true to my heart, I’m an entrepreneur. See, I wasn’t like a celebrity that got into real estate. I was someone that was in real estate and saw an opportunity to build a brand to get more real estate. So in my heart I’m an entrepreneur so I’m still active CEO in the companies. Uh I’m still involved in the day-to-day and every single day I’m always desperately looking for the absolute best help out there. So we’re always hiring. We’re always looking for for amazing people to join the team.
And I started in luxury real estate, um, and I’m on a show called Selling Sunset, which became a global hit in every country. And uh we were already established real estate office and, um, the opportunity came to us to film a TV show and they interviewed all the agents in the office and they chose who they wanted for the show. And, you know, I think about season three is when it really blew up and that was part of the reason it it’s an amazing show. You know, the real estate agents in the office are very interesting, um beautiful women. Um, luxury homes in West Hollywood, Beverly Hills, California and then COVID actually helped the show blow up because everyone was home. They were looking for an escape and uh so season three about what 2020-20, 2020, 2021 is when it really blew up. And then Tarek and I have a show together called The Flipping El Moussas where you see me flip houses for the first time on TV. So I’d never flipped a house before. So episode one you you watch me flip my first home with the expert who’s been doing this for years and now we’re filming season two and you see the progress I’ve made with my flips.
Yeah, she she actually just started her 20th flip. A year ago, she flipped her first ever house with me and today 20 houses later, it’s incredible to watch how much she’s learned, how much she’s grown, and the amount of knowledge that she’s obtained.
Yeah, in the beginning coming from a luxury real estate standpoint, I really, you know, I didn’t realize the business of flipping and I came into it wanting to do all these luxury things to these homes we were flipping and you know, oh I want to do this, I want to do that. And now my mind has shifted so much from luxury to the return on investment and the most profit at the end and how we can save and how we can make the most. So really in a short amount of time, I’ve learned so much valuable lessons for flipping.
What is the kind of core business model? What’s your bread and butter in this business?
I mean, the the bread and butter for us is, you know, typically Southern California, uh and we’re typically getting houses between 500,000 and about 1.5 million. That’s kind of our bread and butter. Uh will we go lower? Yes. Will we go higher? Yes. Um but we prefer to stay between 500,000 and 1.5 million.
Okay. And and you know, what how much are you putting into a typical flip and then what are you selling it for at the end?
Yeah, so it it depends. So you’ll take a three bedroom, two bathroom, say, you know, 1200 square foot house to go in there and do a really nice flip, full remodel, new AC, windows, floor, I mean everything. Today you’re looking at about, I’d say 130, 140,000. Um, I know in California we’re probably paying more uh than people are paying in other markets. Um but I learned early on not to do the work myself and I know I can save money by doing the work myself, but that’s going to prevent me from doing other houses. And the houses make the money, not the work, right? So, so that’s one thing. And then but we’re doing bigger projects, like we’re doing a house right now in the city of La Palma, we’re spending 240,000. It’s a 2100 square foot house and this is pretty cool because the market is in mayhem. Uh we started the project about six, seven weeks ago. The the high comps at the time was at 1,150, 1,175 and I reran the comps this morning, we have two, two new ones. Uh one is at 1.3, one is at 1.318. So, uh we just added six figures to our bottom line. So I’m very excited about that. So we’re actually headed to the house this afternoon to see what we could add to it to make sure we get that number.
That’s awesome. Now, have you seen, in the last two years, we saw a pullback in activity from flippers in a general sense. Was that reflected in your business and how have things evolved maybe since the last 18 months with the rising interest rate environment? Are you getting, seeing things ramp back up, for example?
Yeah, like like nobody is here. Anyone that says it hasn’t been a struggle, they’re not telling the truth. So, you know, we bought 91 houses first quarter of 2022. So, uh 91 California houses and the rates at the time were two and a half, three percent. And while we were fixing up all these houses, uh the rates went to six to 7%. So we burned through, I think it was 10 or 11 million dollars in expected profit. Um and immediately when the rates doubled, I stopped all buying, immediately uh moved to wholesaling because I knew I was going to be incurring losses. So in order to offset those losses, I needed to have revenue. So I stopped buying, finished all those houses. There were some where I was losing three, four, 500,000. But while I was fixing those houses up, we built the wholesaling model that was bringing in three, four, 500, 600,000 to offset those losses. So we weathered the storm. Today we are thriving. Uh it’s a mix. We’re probably uh wholesaling 75%, flipping 25% and doing anywhere between 10 and 20 deals a month.
Awesome. So what is your like let’s dive into each part of this process. What is your model for finding these deals either to wholesale or flip?
Yeah, so the finding, which you know, I I teach my students all the time is like the most important thing. You can hire a designer, you can hire a contractor, you can hire a real estate, you can hire everybody to do everything. But you it’s be really difficult to hire someone to go find you that house, right? So finding deals is very important. So when I built the business, I had no money, nothing. So the business was built through outbound prospecting. So I would door knock, I would cold call, I would network, I would text message and I would hit the streets every day. I had one goal in mind, 50 conversations a day. If I didn’t talk to 50 people I did not know, I was allowed to go home. So that’s how I found success fast, massive action. Today, I’ve been on TV a long time, I’ve built a brand. So now I leverage the brand. So we’ve done TV commercials, radio ads, podcasts, uh paper clicks, search marketing, uh anything you can possibly think of, but we’re definitely a marketing-based company.
Awesome. Do you do you find that there are higher margins at the lower end of the spectrum, those $500,000 properties or the uh higher end, the $1.5 million dollar properties? And I wonder Heather how your experience, you know, selling these these these luxury high-end properties uh is impacting and influencing part of the direction going forward here.
Well, I brought in a luxury, um, I guess vibe to the houses. So.
Yeah, we’ve stepped up the game.
We’ve stepped up the game. Yeah. and you know, I don’t have the time to go out and source materials, look for, you know, but I bring my design eye to it and we work with designers. So I’ve hired designers that I found, um, to go out and find material for less of a cost that still look very high-end. So I brought my high-end eye to the flips. Um,
Yeah, so like the design is at a whole other level. You’ll see season two of our show like the houses are insane, they’re gorgeous.
Yeah, and I think Tarek and I are even more hands-on with design this year, like this season on all of our flips where um last year we were as well, but this season we’ve stepped it up even more and picking out all the materials, but you know, I learned a lot personally from last season. We were flipping more high-end homes and they were they’re we were flipping more in the city of Los Angeles. We’ve now shifted and we’re flipping more in Orange County. A lot of the permits, that was the major issue last season for us last year. So we’re still finishing a few of the flips that we didn’t finish and what it took about 10 months to,
Yeah, 10 months to a year.
Yeah, and and to answer your question, uh when the prices are going up and it’s an appreciating market, I like the more expensive ones. Uh when if the market is not going up and it’s stable or even going down, I like the lower priced ones because they’re faster to fix, faster to sell, less risk.
So we’re working on a lot of lower end homes right now. Um lower price. lower price. Well, I mean, we got one for what 430, but then we’re flipping and selling it for 800 and something. So, uh I like those better as well because they are smaller, we can get in and out faster and hope for the market does not shift during that time.
Awesome. So how are you financing these deals? Is it is it cash from previous flips or, you know, hard money, some combination?
Yeah, so I when I first started, I had no money, so uh I went out with investors, the deal was I did everything, all the work, A to Z, they got a check and we split profits 50/50. Uh and then as time went on, I started making money. Uh so now we leverage hard money hard money loans. So on every flip we’re doing, we’re we’re obtaining a hard money loan and then we’re also most of times covering the construction cost.
Awesome. And then walk me through your contractor uh network. You know, I’ve I’ve watched a few episodes. It seems like some of these guys are long-term friends at this point. Um but how did you get started building that contractor network and how do you um keep keep crews going um all the time to keep the keep costs down here?
Yeah, well, I I got my contractor network by getting burned by a lot of contractors. I mean, that’s the thing of life. Like you gotta get sometimes and and and that’s the truth as an entrepreneur, you are going to get burned, you are going to get screwed over. People are going to lie to you, but what makes a true entrepreneur is not quitting, right? So the reason I found good contractors is because I went through the bad ones and they made my life a living hell. They didn’t show up, they ripped me off. But I had to move on from them and I kept looking, kept looking and if you’re always looking, eventually you find what you’re looking for.
Awesome. Any any tips for folks to cut that process a little shorter or to get have a higher probability win rate um with a great contractor?
Here’s one of the most valuable lessons I’ve learned in my life. It’s not about what I know, it’s not about what I can learn, it’s not about who I can hire to learn, it’s about who already knows the answer. So instead of going to find a contractor and giving them a chance or an opportunity to to work on a flip, no. Go find a contractor that’s been working on flips since 2010 that’s delivered 1800 houses that knows exactly how to flip houses better than you the investor.
Now, let’s talk about uh marriage and business here. You know, you guys are uh are business partners and have a wonderful, wonderful family dynamic here. How do you how do you balance that and uh, you know, work together seamlessly um through these thriving businesses?
Now, the main thing is communication and really enjoying our time together. I mean not every couple can work together, live together, raise children together, be together all day, but I feel like we have a good machine going.
Yeah, I don’t I don’t know about the opposites attract thing because I dated opposites when I younger days and it was not fun. So like we we have the we have we’re like very similar. We both love real estate, we both love design, we both love uh entertainment like we like the same things. So like even when we’re not working, I know this sounds sick, when we’re not working, we’re out like on the weekends like sometimes I’ll wake up at 5 in the morning, I can’t sleep, we’ll go drive neighborhoods and look for houses. Like we just we’re obsessed with real estate.
And, you know, family is very important to us too and having that balance and you know, we have a new baby, we have an eight month old and then a 13 year old and an eight year old. So, you know, it is a lot of balance because we have school, we have uh sporting events and, you know, we’re busy with the kids so we really try to make it a point to turn off our phones at a certain time, spend time with our family. Um, you know, I try to take days off and be with the baby as much as possible while he’s so young right now. So if I can’t make it to something, Tarek will really, you know, he’ll handle it for me. Like today, I’m taking the day off to be with you guys and then also be with the baby. So he’s gonna go walk the flip for me.
Yeah. And and like the truth is it takes an army to run our lives. I mean, we’re torn in so many directions, you know, we have two drivers, three assistants, we have all these things that support us personally so we can go out there and have the time to work on all these businesses. And that’s what most people don’t realize. It’s it’s time is our most valuable asset. You lose money, you can make money back. You lose time, you can’t make time back. So, you know, we really delegate almost every single thing in our life to the point where people tell us what to do and we show up and do it.
Awesome. So, you know, one of the big elements in your business is your both of your individual brands and the combined brand now that you have as a married couple here and how you leverage that in many areas to to create synergies around your business, right? That helps you find deals, you mentioned. Um it obviously there’s probably a profit component to being part of the HGTV um uh network with with a lot of these uh opportunities. And um, you know, there’s obviously your your your business savvy here. But many of the people, you know, listening to this may not, you know, have that personal brand behind them. Do you think it’s necessary to to have this level of success or what, you know, or if it is, how would you go about curating that brand from scratch?
The best way to get started or the best way to build it is to build it by getting started.
Just get started.
Get started. Like you say, oh I want to invest in real estate, oh I want to go on a diet, oh I want to go to the gym. How long you going to think about it, six months? Well, why don’t you just get in your car right now and drive to the gym? Like, stop waiting, take action.
And you can build a brand while you’re doing that. I mean if people want to build a brand and, um, be more successful in that aspect, you can film yourself walking your flips. You can film yourself doing all the projects. You can film yourself, you know, doing anything and you just have to get started on that too and not be nervous because a could be nerve-wracking to do that and oh, I don’t I’m not known, I don’t have a brand, but you can build a brand.
Yeah.
You don’t have to be on TV to build that brand.
So like if someone was starting at zero, open create a brand, create a brand logo, whatever you want to do. You don’t even need a logo. Just create some social media pages. If you want to be a real estate investor, all day, every day, you post about real estate, you walk fix your upper properties, you and you’re just always talking about what you do, the first six months, you might get five followers. But by year three, I’m pretty sure you’re gonna have thousands.
Yeah, be consistent and you can also watch what other people are out there doing and be studying that and just, you know, do some of the same videos as them and, um, just be authentic to yourself.
Yeah, I love that authentic authenticity piece. And it’s also, you know, just help one person and help them engage with them, show them what you’re doing, help them learn from you and follow it and then do it again and then slowly scale it. Just get started. Love that advice.
Good start.
All right, so we’ve talked about, you know, the the the empire here. Let’s go, let’s dive into the new business that you’re pursuing here in the syndication space. What’s what’s uh what is the history behind that move? What have you done so far and where are you going with your syndication business?
All right, so I’ll tell you the story about that. Um so I started flipping in 2010. By 2015, uh I was throwing live events, I had my TV shows, business was humming, I was doing incredible. Met with my CPA and realized I owed a lot of money in taxes. I’m talking a lot of money. And I look at him, I said, ‘You’re telling me people make pay this much in taxes?’ And he says, ‘No.’ And I said, ‘What do you mean no?’ I said, ‘What do they do?’ He goes, ‘They buy real estate.’ I was like, that’s what I do. He goes, ‘No, you buy and sell real estate. They buy real estate.’ I’m like, well what do you mean? And then he started teaching me about depreciation. So that was a big game changer for me. When I learned about depreciation, the light bulb went off, my eyes went big, and I knew I needed to start owning. And that’s how I started to acquire it. I bought 200 houses, around 200 houses. And then over the years, people would see me all the time, you know, walking the streets at the gym, whatever, ‘Hey Tarek, we want to invest with you, we want to do deals with you.’ And I never, I never needed investors to flip these houses because I just, I just don’t need them. Um so I I saw an opportunity to where, well, I’m I’m going after commercial real estate. If if I have partners, I can buy bigger and maybe even better deals and that’s where the idea came from. I said, you know, and and just trying to help as many people as possible invest their money with me, create wealth with me, and and outside of, you know, creating wealth and learning about real estate, we have a lot of fun, you know, with our companies, we have events and dinners and yacht parties. We’re going to Cabo, Mexico in next year with our investors. Um so that’s really how it got started.
Awesome. And so what what have you bought so far? Um where are you where are you buying it and what does it look like?
Sure. So we’ve bought uh three apartment buildings in Arizona. Uh we just closed on one in Northwest Arkansas like two months ago, was a 376 unit. I really like that. I think next week we’re closing on one in Orlando, Florida. It’s a 215 unit. And then we’re announcing the great…
Yeah, next week, next week.
Uh… storage facility.
Yeah, and then a storage facility in Arizona, it’s already done. It’s…
What day are you closing on the Orlando property?
I’m not, I’m not sure. It’s been, it’s we’re we’re it’s an it’s we’re assuming a HUD debt at 3.8% with 37 years left. So it’s an incredible assumable loan, but with HUD things are moving slow. So they said next week, but they also said last week, so we’ll see how that goes. Um, so then another uh self-storage facility in Arizona and then we’re we’re we’re about to break ground and developing another one in Arizona. It’s about a 200,000 square foot facility. Uh and then another project we’re working on right now is a development project in North Hollywood, California, and and that project is uh myself and my wife and a few other general partners.
Awesome. So what’s the, what’s the kind of thesis or business model that’s gonna that ties all these different investments together here? Are you looking for certain types of properties in certain locations? Are you looking for just great deals opportunistically around the country? How are you kind of pursuing the the syndication business?
Yeah. So one, I’m looking in the best markets across the country. So that’s one. Two, I’ll buy in any market if it’s a home run deal.
What’s the best market? What what what makes a best market in the country?
Uh, man, I mean that changes all the time, you know. The best markets around the country that just depends on the opportunity. Today it’s a little bit weird, but a couple years ago it was Arizona, it was Texas, it was, you know, North Carolina was on fire, um, Florida, right? But today I’m still big believer in these areas, but I’m not going into Orlando trying to do a value add project. For me, I feel more comfortable buying a Class A with low assumable debt that regardless, you know, it should be a safe investment.
Okay, awesome. And then what makes a what makes a great deal in this space? How how how do how do folks think about, you know, finding great value opportunities uh in this space? Is it the opportunity to assume these types of debt? Is it uh unique characteristics specific to each property or?
Yeah, I mean, I would I would say it’s a case by case scenario. Like each each property is different in so many ways. Um, on some properties if I’m able to assume debt on a newer construction property, uh at 3.49% like I got in Northwest Arkansas when the market debts at seven, I’m feeling pretty good about that. Uh would I go into a deal today in Surprise Arizona that was a major fixer value add with major construction at the right price? Heck yeah, I would. 100%. So it really just depends on the deal itself. Like if I can get, you know, if I can go buy an apartment building for 3 million or no, 3 million. $10 million dollars today, put 10 million dollars into it and sell it for 40 or 50? Yeah, I would do that deal.
So are you are you planning to bring some of the flipping expertise that you guys have developed into the syndication model from a value add perspective?
Absolutely. Um like one of our big goals is really really creating really cool designs for tenants, not by spending a fortune on material, but really thinking about the look and feel that they’re going to want in a home they live in.
Awesome. And and um are a lot of these apartment complexes, do they have the do do they have the layout that you need? You just need they just need that vision and touch and that you’re that’s what you’re finding, especially may wraps in the the California and Arizona properties?
Yeah, the value add ones, they they need facelifts for sure. Um the newer class A, the assumable debt ones we’re doing, those those are in great shape.
Heather, let’s let’s transition and talk a little bit about um the the filming TV celebrity business that you guys, you know, you’re you you’re both uh businessmen, but you’re also a businessman, right? Um who is who said that? Some somebody said that, I love that.
Uh, the business… Jay Z.
Jay Z, that’s right. Yeah, there you go.
I’m not a businessman, but I’m also a businessman, man.
That’s right, yes, you guys are a businessman.
We are walking businesses and we’re business people.
Let’s talk about that part of it and and what what is the business behind the scenes here of being celebrities? Like what what how, you know, how does how do things work? How do you think about the relationship with HTGV? When you’re buying a property, is there an angle for, oh, this would look great on TV as well uh combined with that and how do you how do you manage that and um Heather, I know you’re you’re particularly strong in this area. You both are strong, but.
You know, the dirtier, nastier houses they transform into gorgeous homes on TV. So I’m I I always tell Tarek, like I get the nasty ones, get the dirty ones because that’s new for me as well. Like it’s fun for me to walk through the nastiest, stinkyest, dirtiest homes. It’s disgusting, but it’s fun to see that transform on TV and I think the audience really loves that because we’re taking something that’s so foul, so ugly, so disgusting and we’re turning it into a beautiful place for a family to move into and fall in love with. So, yeah we’re definitely thinking about that when we’re looking at properties. Um, also ones we can get in and out of faster because we are filming a TV show and it takes time to flip a house. So, you know, if we film for for over, you know, we can’t film for over a year on one project. So, unfortunately, we got into doing that last season. We had to finish up two homes later on and you’ll be seeing those come out earlier in 2024. Um but what else?
Yeah, I mean it’s just it’s a whole business behind it.
I mean, yeah, we, you know, we’re both normal people that got on TV, like I wasn’t a real estate agent that you know, it’s not like I did anything special to get on TV. I was part of a real estate office on Sunset Boulevard, we were a real office and you know, we happened to get on a TV show and it became a worldwide global um TV show. So there was nothing special that I did to get on a show besides…
There was. There was something special. I mean, nothing special.
Well, I mean, not I I think not everyone can be on TV and do what we do, but.
But here’s what people don’t realize. Like being on TV, it’s not like you can just like, oh, go to work. Like, no, you’re on TV, you have to be energetic, you have to be on, you have to be witty like when we’re there, we are working, like you have to be 100% present, you have to be 100% there.
But I’m saying it’s not like I went out and like I didn’t try to get myself a TV show. You know, because of who we were and our personalities, yes, the TV show does well. Not everyone can just be on a show and and be as successful as we are.
Yeah, look, I I look, I I love the humility here, right? There’s luck and then there’s how you play the hand that you’re dealt and maybe there’s a little bit of luck in getting the first chance there and then you’ve played the hand that you’ve been dealt phenomenally well. You’re you’re a superstar. You’ve got millions of followers and I was I want like there’s something that you’re doing in in in in conjunction with that great start that got you going with that that is really entertaining people that really resonates with people. And that’s what I want to find out. Like what what is that secret that you have to sustaining that popularity and the way that you relate to people uh in your in your personal brand?
Well, I think you said it, relatability and you know, you know, I’m very present on social media on Instagram especially and you know, I make um a lot of my finances doing brand deals with um big brands and companies out there, licensing deals. So, you know, I’m really authentic with who I choose to work with as well. Like I’ve been brought up a bunch of different opportunities and I don’t just take something because I’m gonna be I’m gonna make financial, I’m gonna make money off of that. Um so I will pass on things because it’s not authentic to who I am. I’m plant-based. I’m love uh clean uh products, nontoxic products. So I really try to work with brands that are on um point to what I I believe in and not everyone does that. And I think that that’s a big problem out there and it’s so saturated at this point. So, you know, we also talk to our fans and we like to hear from them and what do they want, what do they want to hear from us? And Tarek does a really good job of that as well and he’s very personable with people and I think that makes a big difference as well.
There’s been, you know, we deal with a lot of negativity as well, which is not fun and I think being a brand and being, you know, a celebrity, you deal with that and it can be tough. I mean, on on me especially and uh I just choose not to read certain things. I choose to engage with people that are positive and we really try to surround ourselves with positivity and not let negative people in our lives and cut that out as much as possible, especially having an infant and a new baby. I’ve really tried to protect our energy and um, I think a lot of my time is invested on the the baby and our marriage and our family life and we don’t have time to deal with the negativity, but it’s always going to come.
Yeah, it’s it’s always it’s always.
It’s never gonna go away. It’s always gonna be there. Not everyone’s gonna love you.
We’ve talked about removing negativity here, but you know, what part of what makes the TV so great is I’m not going to use the word negativity, is the drama uh that goes on that show. So how much of that, you know, uh is how how how how much should we, you know, take all that as as real and what is what’s just real?
Are you talking about Selling Sunset or our show?
I’ll I’ll I’ll start with Selling Sunset and then move to uh The Flipping El Moussas.
I mean, you get a group of successful women together and there’s gonna be drama, you know, you you start out with nothing and then things just happen and come up. So the drama can be very toxic. I mean, it’s, there was a lot of times I’d come home and I would cry to my husband and, you know, and that’s not fun and you have to learn how to like work through that and then you have to watch yourself on TV go through it again.
Yeah, but but here’s what people don’t realize. Like they don’t realized like in real life, that conversation probably never would have happened, but because it’s a show, the producer say, ‘Okay, you guys need to go talk about this right now.’ So imagine two people upset with each other instead of like giving it a couple days and, ‘No, no, go talk about it.’ Of course you’re going to get drama and that’s what makes the show so successful.
Yeah, you work together, there’s drama, there’s, you know, things that come up that you weren’t expecting and but like that’s the hardest thing is you’re in it, you’re filming, there’s drama, you come home, it’s still, we’re still real, it’s our real life, we’re still real people. It’s not just for TV and then it comes out on TV and you have to relive it again and then go through the haters and the fans that are critiquing you and hating on you and then, you know, oh, you said that in a scene and then, um…
It’s all editing though. They can make any scene look any way they want through editing.
Yeah. So it could be might not have been as bad.
But that’s why, that’s why I love HGTV. Yeah, I mean and it’s a different platform. Like filming for Flipping El Moussas, I get to film with my husband. It’s a very positive environment. The drama is with the home, the drama is with the construction, the drama is with the permits and you know, things going wrong, it’s not a personal drama between me and my husband that I have to go home and we still have to go through it. It’s very different from from Selling Sunset where it was like personal and this is more about the home. So it’s a very more positive environment.
Does does that ever, does that dynamic that you just described, does it ever make you kind of wish, you know, I could just fade out and fade out of the spotlight and and and live a quiet private life or you just love it uh being in the spotlight?
I personally love it. I mean, I think I was born to be on TV. I there was a point of my life where I was like, what am I good at? Like what can I, you know, when I was younger and I think I’m really good at being on TV. I really thoroughly enjoy it. I came from a modeling world so I was modeling and doing TV from the age of 20 years old. Um so it was natural for me to then be on a reality show um coming from that modeling world and so for me I I personally love being on camera. I love modeling, like I I love it. I thoroughly love it, him not so much.
Oh, I love it. I love it.
No, he doesn’t. You don’t like being on TV.
I’m a little different, you know, I like I said, I’m an entrepreneur at heart and like I love business, I love being out there working, I like building. Um, but as the years went on, cuz I’ve been on TV a long time now and I struggled with this for many years. I mean, there were times when I’d say, okay, maybe it’s time to get off, you know. But I’ve come to the point where I’ve realized I’ve been on TV so long and I’ve built a big enough platform that I actually have the ability to help an entire generation of people, like meaning like I could teach people about real estate, I can teach people about, you know, tax arbitrage, I could teach you about like I can I can take all the knowledge that I’ve gained in the last 20 years and because of TV I have this platform which really gives me the ability to help people. So because of that, I like TV.
That’s a really good point as well that I didn’t bring up, you know, a lot of my following as women and I really try to tap into my my personal journey when I’m speaking to people because there’s something that I’m going through that people don’t maybe speak of or they don’t feel comfortable speaking of or they don’t have the platform that I do, especially, you know, going through pregnancy, postpartum and um I’m really vocal about things so because I’m touching even if it’s one person, I’m helping someone out there.
Looking back, if you could, what what is one thing or what are a couple of things you would have changed now that you know, the benefit of hindsight?
I went through two cancers. Would I change that? I don’t I don’t think so actually because I I learned a lot from it. Um I’ve been broke, what would I change that? Probably not because I learned like I’ve learned from from everything I’ve gone through. If there was one thing I could change, the number one thing I I I would change would would be would be going back and being easier on myself on my road to success. I was so stressed out, so overwhelmed, so defeated, feeling like a failure, feeling like I’m not good enough, feeling like I could do more, but I never stopped working. So I eventually found success, but it was a a very difficult process to get through the mental health aspects of failing over and over every day for long periods of time.
What about you, Heather?
I would say maybe when I got into real estate, really learned the the the bad, the good, the ugly, like the deeper dive into real estate. I think, you know, I had a mentor in the beginning, which helped me a lot because, you know, I got a huge deal. My first deal was 7 million deal, 7.1 and I couldn’t have done that on my own. I didn’t know how to do contracts, I didn’t know what to do, I didn’t know how to stage the houses, like I was brand new and got this huge deal and then I got another one right after for 1.5 million. So it was like I didn’t know what I was doing. But I really felt like I let him take over the deal too much and I didn’t learn as much as I should have in the beginning. And I think I’ve heard that a lot from other women in the business as well. We tend to kind of let other people, you know, you’re a beautiful girl, you’re doing real estate, you’re hardworking, but people think that you’re stupid sometimes and that you can’t do the job, so they would take over and I really wished I would have pushed harder and I let a lot of men um interfere with some of my success and some of my deals where I kind of step back and I wasn’t as uh I didn’t stand up for myself and I lost a lot of money in the beginning because of that and I let them take over and really screw me on deals.
And now she’s a shark.
And now I’m a shark. Yeah, but I definitely was not aggressive enough in the beginning.
All right, what’s the vision for the future? Where where are the Moussas going to be in five years here?
Oh, five years. Well, I mean, well five years, you know, still doing what we’re doing most likely, you know, more investments, more businesses.
I would love to buy more properties personally, like I’ve just getting started with that. So, uh buy more properties on my own with my husband, continue the success of flipping El Moussas, um grow home by them even larger.
Yeah. And then, you know, the businesses that the what we’re most excited about is probably TEM Capital and HM Capital because those are the two vehicles that allow us to share our love for real estate and it allows us to help others get in the game. So I would say those are the two most important things.
Awesome. Well, look forward to continuing to follow your journeys guys. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. And uh really exciting stuff that you’re up to.
Thank you. We’ll see you in Florida.
Thank you.
Bye.
All right, that was Tarek and Heather Al Moussa. Well, I look, I I thought that the most the most fun thing about this particular episode was uh, look, you wonder, hey, these guys are HGTV stars, how much of this is being set up by HGTV or whatever with that. But no, these guys are really sophisticated investors. Tarek uh was was happy to share the realities of the flipping business. I I was also shocked to learn about the um the profitability of flipping houses in Southern California. I don’t know why that hadn’t occurred to me before. Sure there was a boom and bust component to this where there was huge profits for a period of time. And then he was quick to admit huge losses for a period of time. But now that spread has returned and when you’re doing this kind of luxury flipping, um you know, you wonder if on average, over a long period of time, the average returns are are very high as long as you can withstand the storms there, which obviously their operation is large enough and at enough scale uh to make that work. So I really appreciated learning that and um I wished them all the success in the world in the next uh phases of their career and hope that they continue entertaining tons of people with um really high quality flips and spreading the word and interest about real estate investing even further. All right, from this episode of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast, I am Scott Trench saying, Cash Out Girl Scout. If you enjoyed today’s episode, please give us a five star review on Spotify or Apple. And if you’re looking for even more money content, feel free to visit our YouTube channel at youtube.com/biggerpocketsmoney. Bigger Pockets money was created by Mindy Jensen and Scott Trench, produced by Kalyn Bennett, editing by Exodus Media, copywriting by Nate Weintraub. Lastly, a big thank you to the Bigger Pockets team for making this show possible.
