Mindy Jensen: Welcome to the BiggerPockets Money Podcast, where we answer tough money questions from our audience, kind of like a financial advice column. Think of this as a different kind of Finance Friday. Hello, hello, hello. My name is Mindy Jensen, and with me as always is my has-all-the-tough-money-answers co-host, Scott Trench.
Scott Trench: Great to be here with my dear Mindy co-host, Mindy Jensen.
Mindy Jensen: Scott and I are here to make financial independence less scary, less just for somebody else, to introduce you to every money story, because we truly believe financial freedom is attainable for everyone, no matter when or where you’re starting.
Scott Trench: That’s right. Whether you wanna retire early and travel the world, go on to make big-time investments in assets like real estate, start your own business, or think through a variety of tough money problems, we’ll help you reach your financial goals and get money out of the way so you can launch yourself towards your dreams.
Mindy Jensen: Scott, I love our new segment of the show called Money Moments, where we share a money hack, tip, or trick to help our listeners on their financial journey. Today’s money moment is travel during the shoulder season. This is the time between the high season and the low season when tourism is typically at a lull. Points in spring and autumn normally fall under this category. You’ll be able to snag deals before the location gets too busy. Do you have a money tip for us? Email moneymoment@biggerpockets.com. Scott, I really like this episode today. We don’t have a guest. Instead, you and I are answering listener questions. In this episode, we answer questions regarding giving a friend a loan, financial aid payback, healthcare for early retirees, and how to ask for a raise.
Scott Trench: Yeah, we’d love your feedback on this, and we’d love to get your questions. So if you have a question you want to submit, go to biggerpockets.com/moneyquestion, and you can either type one in or leave an audio question there, and we will potentially answer it on one of these shows. So thanks so much for everyone who did ask those questions, and look forward to getting the next set. I’m skeptical of a lot of financial products, but life insurance isn’t one of them, at least not term life. For the vast majority of you listening, term life is simply the right answer, and the smartest way to buy it isn’t one big policy, it’s a ladder. Your need for coverage isn’t flat, it declines over time. You’ve got a 30-year mortgage, a couple of young kids, maybe a spouse mid-career. In 15 years, the mortgage is going to be smaller and the kids are almost launched. So instead of buying one giant 30-year policy you’ll overpay for, you stack a few—say a 10-year, a 20-year, and a 30-year layer—so your total coverage steps down as your actual obligations step down. You only pay for what you actually need when you need it. Ethos is a platform that helps you find life insurance 100% online. You can get a quote in seconds and apply in minutes. There’s no medical exam, you just answer a few health questions online. You can get up to $3 million in coverage. Some policies are as low as $30 a month. That makes building a ladder genuinely fast. Get your free quote at ethos.com/bpmoney. That’s ethos.com/bpmoney. Application times may vary and rates may vary. You know how the change in seasons hits and suddenly you just wanna declutter the garage, clean out the closets, and get everything all organized? That same feeling hits me with my finances every spring. I used to have accounts scattered everywhere, making it hard to stay on track with my money goals. Let Monarch do your financial spring cleaning for you. One dashboard that gets your entire financial life organized. No more clutter, no more mess, no more scattered logins, just accounts, investments, property, and more all in one place. One thing that really surprised me was pulling up the cash flow view and seeing what percentage of my income was quietly going to lifestyle creep, dining out, and subscriptions I barely notice. It motivated me to make some quick adjustments. Get your first year of Monarch for half off, just $50, with the promo code POCKETS. Use the code POCKETS at monarch.com to get your first year half off at just $50. That’s 50% off your first year at monarch.com with the code P-O-C-K-E-T-S.
Mindy Jensen: When you’re ready to start your business, Northwest Registered Agent helps you do more than just file paperwork. You get all the tools to build a real business identity from day one: a business address, website, phone number, operating agreement, free guides, and more at no extra cost. Northwest Registered Agent has been helping small business owners and entrepreneurs launch and grow businesses for nearly 30 years. They are the largest registered agent and LLC service in the US, with over 1,500 corporate guides. These are real people who know your local laws and can help you and your business every step of the way. With Northwest, your business is set up to stand on its own from day one. That means your home address, personal email, and phone number stay private. Don’t pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for what you can get from Northwest for free. Visit northwestregisteredagent.com/moneyfree and start using free resources to build something amazing. Get more with Northwest Registered Agent at northwestregisteredagent.com/moneyfree. You wrote in and asked us some of your hardest finance questions. We’re keeping you anonymous today. Here’s the first one. Dear Mindy and Scott, I was trying to be a good friend, but this person is financially crippling me. My partner and I decided to take a loan out in our name to help a friend. They would pay back the loan over time since they couldn’t qualify for one themselves. Payments came for the first few months and then stopped, and we had to take over. Long story short, we hit hard times due to loss of employment and are now living in a relative’s basement. We are stuck with this loan. We’ve paid off most of the loan balance, but our credit scores are recovering from all the financial turmoil. We can’t get a credit card and are in a tough spot. What should we do? Declare bankruptcy? Ride it out? Confront the friend? Sincerely, Lost. Scott, I’m going to let you answer this one first because I have a lot of thoughts about this.
Scott Trench: Yeah, okay. So let’s list out a couple of facts. This was a loan to a friend, and it was communicated as a loan. There are several months of payments that came in from the friend before they stopped. This person then had to assume the loan. They’ve made payments against it. They’ve almost paid off the balance is what they said, but they’re recovering from financial turmoil. This so-called friend borrowed money from them, stopped paying them back, and partially as a result of that, they are now living in a basement with relatives and are in a really tight spot. This person is no longer your friend. If they were your friend, they would’ve paid the money back and been on top of this if they had any means whatsoever, or they would’ve been communicating with you in such a way where you would’ve phrased this question differently. This person—someone doesn’t pay me, so if I lend someone money, which I would not do, we’ll talk about this in a second here, but which I would not do, and they didn’t pay me back, that’s a problem, right? And will be a problem in our relationship. But if someone doesn’t pay me back and I now have to move my family into a friend’s basement partially because of that, this person is out of my life. It’s no longer a friendship. That’s a major problem. They’re clearly just not a friend. So what should we do here? First, you shouldn’t declare bankruptcy. You said it yourself here, Lost, that you have paid off most of the loan balance. Keep attacking this problem. If you’ve paid off most of it, that means that there’s only a little bit left. We don’t know the relative sums here, but that’s my conclusion from the way that this is phrased out. I would ride it out and begin attacking the problem. I would assume that your friend, so-called friend, is not going to pay you back, but I’d confront them anyways and maybe even consider legal action, because you do have a history of them paying you back for parts of that loan, which I think implies a contract. To avoid the situation in the future: one, if you’re going to lend to somebody, call it a business relationship. It’s a loan, it’s not a gift. Have a contract in place and have mechanisms and collateral to collect on that. If you don’t want to damage your relationship or want to value relationships, don’t lend money to friends and family. Instead, gift money. I think, Mindy, you have some good frameworks on that one, but I’ll let you go and take it from here.
Mindy Jensen: Yeah, I really think that this particular listener is trying to salvage the relationship, and I think you had a really good point, Scott. This friend isn’t a friend. A friend doesn’t make you chase them down for the loan that you generously took out for them. You’re helping them out and they’re taking advantage of you. I don’t think this is a declare-bankruptcy sort of situation, but we don’t know how much the loan is for, their income, et cetera. I absolutely think you should confront the friend from the standpoint of, this isn’t a friend anymore. You should confront this person and say, I lent you money when you were in a bind, and you have put me in a bind by not giving me the money back on the agreed-upon schedule. Now I’m wondering if they have something in writing saying that they agreed to these payments on this time schedule, and everything will be paid back by this and such time. I’m wondering if they could sue this person. This is—I mean, I would certainly look into that, especially depending on the amount of the loan. If it’s a $500 loan, it’s not worth taking them to court, maybe like small claims court. If it’s $5,000, $50,000, that’s definitely worth pursuing. Look up your local small claims court limits, because in many cases you can just represent yourself. You save on attorney fees, and it’s a pretty straightforward thing: I borrowed money for them, they were supposed to pay me back, and they didn’t.
Scott Trench: Yeah, and I think you got a real case here depending on your location, because they paid you back for the first few months. They made payments. There’s a history there. Like, what are they going to say? No, that was just doing that out of the goodness of my heart? I think there’s going to be a track record here depending on what documentation you have. You should have had a contract in place and a document that’s been signed. But I wonder if you’ll be able to find enough that implies or explicitly states it in text messages or emails or whatever it is that you used to communicate with this friend.
Mindy Jensen: Exactly. I think that we can’t really beat them up for not having the contract, but for anybody listening considering lending money to a friend or family member, my first piece of advice is don’t. And my second piece of advice is, if you’re not going to take my first piece of advice, at least get a contract. One other thing that I think is really interesting: they couldn’t qualify for a loan themselves. If somebody, a lender who has large pockets and deep pockets and bigger pockets, knows how to vet people—bigger pockets than you—and knows how to vet people for a loan, and it’s like that’s their job, and they won’t give this person a loan, why are you giving this person a loan?
Scott Trench: I think that’s right. And I think that, Mindy, I have one last question here. If this person is not paying Lost back here, do you think that Lost should alert that person’s friends and family to the situation so that those other folks don’t continue to lend this person, who’s not paying people back, additional money? Or do you think that’s a step too far?
Mindy Jensen: Ooh, that might be a step too far. Again, depending on what the loan was for. What could happen, Scott, is that you borrowed fifty thousand dollars from me and stopped paying me back. Then I call up your mom, and I’m like, “Hey, Mrs. Scott,” or “Mrs. Trench.” Hey, Mrs. Trench, Scott borrowed fifty thousand dollars from me and didn’t pay it back. She could say, “You know, Scott borrowed fifty thousand dollars from me and didn’t pay it back.” And then your sister calls up and says, “Yeah, he didn’t pay me back either.” And then all of a sudden everybody’s like, “Why does Scott have four hundred fifty thousand dollars, and he’s not paying anybody back?”
Scott Trench: Yeah, something to think about. I don’t know, I probably would agree with you, but a part of me in that situation would really want to. So it’d be interesting to see how Lost chooses there. Okay, let’s move on to the next question here. Dear Scott and Mindy, what is the least bad way—I love that question, the phrasing of that—least bad way to access my home’s equity to pay off my credit card balance? I own a home that is worth $600,000 and only owe $150,000 on it with a 3.4% interest rate. Given today’s interest rate, what is the best way to access my home equity to pay this off? Best, M.
Mindy Jensen: All right, Scott, I would not be looking at home equity. Of course, we don’t know how much credit card debt there is. I am assuming that it is significant enough that you need to get a line of credit or a home equity loan. I would definitely not refinance your property because you have the 3.4% interest rate. A HELOC, a home equity line of credit, is basically borrowing against that $450,000 that they have sitting there in their equity. You borrow whatever you need—let’s call it $50,000 in credit card debt. You borrow $50,000 from your credit card—or I’m sorry, from your home equity—and you put it towards your credit card. Then you cut up your credit cards, because if you can’t figure out how to stop spending money, you’re going to find yourself in this exact same position with credit card debt, and now a $50,000 HELOC loan to pay too. HELOC rates are like 8% right now, and we’re recording this in July 2023—your mileage may vary. I don’t have an exact quote, but that’s a high interest rate compared to his mortgage interest rate. It is a low interest rate compared to credit card interest rates. Another way to do this, Scott, that I was thinking of, because he’s asking about accessing his home equity—I answered that question first—but another way might be to open up another credit card and do a balance transfer. This works if you have a smaller amount. I don’t know that you can get a credit card with a $50,000 limit and then balance transfer all $50,000. But a lot of times credit cards will have an introductory APR of 0% for 18 months, 12 months, something like that. That’s a great way to pay down a lot of money without paying interest. Then you can play the balance transfer game: take the remaining balance, transfer to a new card, use that introductory time period to make lots of payments interest-free, and then transfer again. Again, we don’t know what the amount is. If it is more than like $10,000, the HELOC might be the way to go, but then I would aggressively pay down the HELOC as soon as possible.
Scott Trench: Yeah, I think those are great suggestions. I think, you know, what is the least bad way to access your home equity to pay off the credit card balance? A home equity line of credit. But there are less bad options than accessing your home equity, as Mindy just alluded to, like potentially playing the balance transfer game if you can get an intro rate of 0%, for example, on a new card. Either way, credit card debt is an emergency. It’s the number one priority in your financial life to take care of, after a very small emergency balance of $1,000 or $2,000, on a regular basis. And because HELOC rates are so high and so unattractive right now at that 8%, 9% that Mindy mentioned, you got to attack this problem. So regardless of how you refinance it—whether it’s a balance transfer to a new credit card, whether it’s a HELOC, or if you have other assets like a stock market balance you can borrow against, that, for example, perhaps at a 3% to 4% interest rate, might be a little higher—those would be better options. But if you have to do it, take out a HELOC. If those options aren’t available, take out a HELOC and attack this thing, because 8%, 9% interest debt is about as good a return as you’re going to get, guaranteed, after-tax, in life. So go after it. When spring hits, some people suddenly just want to declutter the garage, clean out the closets, and get everything all organized. Whether or not that hits you, Monarch will do your financial spring cleaning for you. One dashboard gets your entire financial life organized. No more clutter, no more mess, no more scattered logins, just accounts, investments, property, and more all in one place. One of my favorite parts is the Sankey diagram. Every month I open it up and literally watch the flow of money. It shows exactly where every dollar is going, from income to all of my spending categories. It makes it so much easier to spot what’s working and what needs tweaking. Get your first year of Monarch for half off, just $50, with the promo code POCKETS. Use the code POCKETS at monarch.com to get your first year half off at just $50. That’s 50% off your first year at monarch.com with the code P-O-C-K-E-T-S.
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Scott Trench: Should we move on to another question here?
Mindy Jensen: Yes. Dear Mindy and Scott, I didn’t realize this at the time, but my father took out a Parent PLUS loan when I went to college to help me pay for it. Financial aid was really confusing, and I didn’t grow up in a financially savvy household. I assumed that all debt was in my name, but it turns out that he’s carrying debt from my education. He would like me to help pay it back, but I already have $29,000 worth of debt in my name from school. I know I’m not legally obligated, but is there a right thing to do here? Sincerely, In Debt. Okay, I’m going to go first on this one, Scott. Yes, there’s a right thing to do. It’s your education, and if your father is asking you to help him pay it back, you should help him pay it back. And yes, you have $29,000 worth of student debt in your own name. How much does he have in his name? Of course, we need more information from this question, but if it’s in your name, if it’s for your education, I think you should have a further conversation with your dad. What sort of help does he want paying it back? Does he want you to pay the whole thing back? Does he want you to pay half of it back? Does he want monthly payments? This is a conversation to have with your dad and come up with something. Look at your financial situation. “Oh, I have an extra $50,000 every month, you should help your dad pay off this loan.” Or, “Oh, I’m struggling and I’m barely paycheck to paycheck.” That’s something you can help explain to your dad. “I can’t help you right now, but I can help in the future.” Or, “Why don’t we set up a payment plan in a few years?” But ultimately, the college debt was for your education. You should do everything you can to help pay him back.
Scott Trench: I think that’s right. And I’m speaking from a position of privilege here, where my parents paid for my college and paid off a HELOC, I think, to pay for a lot of that. That puts me in an entitled position here. I think, though, that if I was in this person’s shoes, I would have a conversation with my dad and say, “Hey, absolutely. Here’s my situation. Here’s where I’m at. Here’s what I can afford. What do we think here is reasonable?” And I think that coming at it from that mindset of, “I’m going to be very positive and proactive about this and ready to grind to pay off the student loan debt,” perhaps will result in dad then helping to do the best job he’s able to help pay off that student loan debt. I think the other option there is really a relationship killer, or a potential huge thing in the relationship. And so this person would need to be ready to cut off their parent—in this case, who basically donated to their college education—would be the other alternative there, to not approaching this in a healthy, proactive way of attempting to participate in paying off some of that debt.
Mindy Jensen: Yeah, I’m going to assume that they have at least a cordial relationship and say, this is a conversation you need to have with your dad and see what sort of help he wants and what timeline he wants it in. See if there’s a way to come to an amicable solution.
Scott Trench: Mindy, on a tough question here, but thinking about this—zooming 18 years ahead—if I were in the same situation with my now nine-month-old daughter, I think that as a parent, and again, I get that I’m from a position of privilege here and having a strong financial position at the time I’m saying this, but I think that if I was going to take out debt to pay for my children’s college education, that I would probably own that debt as well. So I think that there’s kind of that—I almost have that mixed-ownership perspective here of dad probably should have owned, in this case, some of that or gone into it, because you can’t lend money to somebody in a family setting. You’ve got to think of it as a gift. We just talked about that earlier. And this person needs to recognize that even though maybe that’s what dad could have brought into the situation, they need to also be accountable for the student loan balance that dad assumed, in this case. So it’s kind of like that mutual accountability, if you will, that I think would be really healthy here. And I think if both parties attack it from that perspective, they’re going to have a much healthier relationship. I bet you, though, that it might be very difficult for both parties to embrace that viewpoint. That’s a really hard spot, and it’s a couple years of grind. We don’t even know what balance the father has. We know that there’s $29,000 of debt for our In Debt friend here.
Mindy Jensen: Yeah, it’s a tough situation all the way around. And, you know, I have this mantra: if you want to know the answer to a question, ask the question. If you want somebody to know something that you’re thinking, you have to tell them. Quick, Scott, what am I thinking right now? You have no idea, because you can’t read my mind—just like I have no idea. Well, I can read your mind, Scott. You’re saying, “Wow, I’m so privileged to be able to record a podcast with Mindy. She’s so awesome.” Yep, see, I can read minds. But if I want you to know what I’m thinking, I have to tell you. So I think the answer to most of these is going to be: have a conversation.
Scott Trench: Okay, let’s go on to the next question here. Dear Mindy and Scott, I was curious about how early retirees address healthcare without a W-2 job. Healthcare is really expensive in the US. How do you plan for that, taking into account the 4% rule? Do you keep a minimal part-time job to pay for it? I want to get to FIRE, but I’m scared that I won’t have enough. Thanks, R.
Mindy Jensen: This is a super fun question, she said ironically. This is actually a very interesting question, which brings up some ethics. So the United States healthcare system is awful. Everybody can agree on that. It’s overpriced, and the healthcare system pays lobbyists to go to Congress and encourage them to write laws that are in favor of the healthcare system. The regular person is not paying lobbyists to go to Congress to encourage congresspeople to look after them, which is kind of their job—but we’re not getting into politics here. So we have expensive healthcare. There is a program in place where, if your income is low, you get government-provided or government-subsidized healthcare. If your income is low enough, you’re on Medicaid. If your income is not low enough to qualify for Medicaid, but still super, super low, you can get the maximum subsidy from the government so that your healthcare out-of-pocket costs are super low. I have a friend who is getting healthcare on the exchange. He has figured out a way to manipulate his income, because he’s retired. He is—and I don’t like the word “manipulate.” What’s another word for manipulate, Scott?
Scott Trench: I mean, realize. He’s realizing a certain amount of income.
Mindy Jensen: Yes, he is realizing a certain amount of income through some odd jobs, which would keep him off Medicaid, but he doesn’t want to be on Medicaid. He doesn’t want to take a position on Medicaid from somebody who actually needs it. So he does Roth conversions from his 401(k) to increase his income so that he is not on Medicaid but still getting the maximum subsidies. Some people think that this is unethical. I think it’s unethical that they are hiring lobbyists to go encourage Congress to pass laws that are not in favor of the American people, but I’ll step off my soapbox there.
Scott Trench: There is—
Mindy Jensen: So his out-of-pocket monthly cost is approximately $300 a month, qualifying for the maximum subsidies on the exchange while staying off Medicaid. And I think that’s a pretty good answer. That’s something that you’re going to have to account for. That is a line item in your budget and should be. You should plan to keep that line item and increase it every year, ’cause it’s going to increase every year. But that’s just another cost. Same with—I have a chronic medical condition and I have very expensive—not insurance, medication—that I have to buy every single year. It’s $11,000. Great, then that’s a line item in your budget that you have to account for, and your FIRE number will be different than somebody else’s FIRE budget, who is not operating under those same conditions—just like your FIRE number is different than my FIRE number, because you have a different lifestyle than I do, Scott.
Scott Trench: Yeah, no, I think that’s a fantastic answer, Mindy. I’ll just provide another example here to reinforce your point. If I have $1 million in index funds, that might produce, say, $20,000—maybe $16,000, $17,000—in dividend income. If I don’t sell any in a year, that’s my income. If I have another million dollars in paid-off real estate on top of that, that might generate $50,000 in cash flow, but at no taxable income, because of the depreciation benefits and the other tax items there that will offset that cash flow. So that’s $67,000 in cash to spend, but $17,000 in taxable income. You’re qualified for Medicaid. I agree that there’s an ethics problem with that. Medicaid is not designed to—the income limits on Medicaid are not there to be harnessed by multimillionaire early retirees who could be working jobs. Each person will have to think about that for themselves. I love your friend’s approach of realizing enough income to help them qualify for another package there. You have a spectrum of choices along there. You’ve got Medicaid—that’s an option, not one that I would take personally, because I’d personally have an ethical dilemma with it. You’ve got the option that your friend chose, of realizing enough income on top of that to qualify for other items on the exchange. You’ve got the option of realizing fat FIRE and generating $100,000+ a year in taxable income, spending it, and just spending more on healthcare and factoring that into your FI plan. And last, one option that you didn’t refer to, Mindy, but I think that I’ll put on the table, is these health share programs. These are not insurance, but they’re alternatives to insurance. They have different rules. They’re relatively new, and they’re a creative solution in this space. We’ve covered them in past episodes of BiggerPockets Money. They’re not going to be for everyone. They’re not insurance, but they work very well for a number of folks. A lot of the people who are in those health-sharing programs swear by them. A lot of other people are put off by those programs, because they may require you, for example, to abide by Christian values in a Christian health-sharing plan, or lifestyle choices—certain lifestyle choices that may not be as inclusive as some people would want—for other ones. But they are an option out there. And so there are several good potential paths here, potential paths that are less bad than paying the maximum price, for a high-income earner, for health insurance on the exchange.
Mindy Jensen: Yep, I agree with that. I believe my friend chose the exchange because he isn’t a religious person and doesn’t feel comfortable saying that he is, in order to get in with that religious organization’s health sharing. Again, there’s some ethical dilemmas, and you have to choose what’s going to sit right with you.
Scott Trench: Yeah, one last thing before we move on here. Those health-sharing programs—some folks pair something like that with, what’s it called, like travel for medic—you know.
Mindy Jensen: Oh, medical tourism.
Scott Trench: Medical tourism, that’s right. Yeah, you go to Mexico to get the operation done, or Europe, or whatever, and the healthcare prices are dramatically cheaper. So if you’re someone who wants to travel a lot and live abroad for a year or two, your healthcare cost problems may evaporate because of the dramatically cheaper options available in other countries. So something to look into. I believe Kristy and Bryce from Millennial Revolution talked a little bit about this on an episode, maybe a couple hundred episodes ago. We’ll have to dig that one up.
Mindy Jensen: Episode 55 and 55.5.
Scott Trench: Wow, that was good.
Mindy Jensen: I remember that one. That was a really good episode. As soon as we were done, we’re like, “Hey, we’ve got to record another show to release the next day, because it was so good.”
Scott Trench: Awesome. So those are some good—if you’ve been putting off life insurance, I get it. The old process was miserable. Phone calls with an agent, a nurse coming to your house for a blood draw, then waiting weeks to find out what you’d pay for. That friction is exactly why so many people who should have coverage don’t. Here’s what I believe. Most BP Money listeners need term life, and the right move is to build a ladder. A few term policies of different lengths stacked together so your coverage steps down as your mortgage shrinks and your kids get closer to being financially independent, or you get closer to hitting your financial independence number. The thing that makes that practical now is Ethos, a platform that helps you find life insurance all 100% online. Same-day coverage, no medical exam. You just answer a few health questions online. Up to $3 million in coverage, some policies as low as $30 a month. So building a 2 or 3-layer ladder that used to take a month of appointments is something you can knock out before your coffee gets cold. Get your free quote at ethos.com/bpmoney. That is ethos.com/bpmoney. Application times may vary and rates may vary.
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Scott Trench: Options there. And then the last one, of course, is you can always just keep working for the healthcare benefits. So, if you love your job—
Mindy Jensen: All right. Dear Mindy and Scott, I have been with my employer for a number of years and have only received a 2% raise yearly. I am essential to the business but don’t know how to approach them about getting a raise. What advice do you have? Should I leave my job? So I’m going to ask you, Scott, because you are the CEO. I’m going to let you say your answer first, and then I’ve got several comments I want to share.
Scott Trench: Yeah, I mean, there are three possibilities here, right? One is that the business is not capable of giving this person more of a raise, even though they are essential. The second is that this person is not actually essential. And the third is that this person has just not played their hand and leveraged their essential position to ask for that raise. So I just want to have a small amount of healthy skepticism and put a little bit of fear into this person’s mindset here. Are they really essential? If it’s been a number of years and it’s only been a 2% raise yearly, they may not be. That may be a statement that is incorrect for them. But if they truly believe it, then I think you’ve got to test that, and you’ve got to be ready for someone to say no and to be able to go out and search and see what your alternatives are. Because that’s what it will come down to: either you confront the situation or you let it lie. And if you confront the situation, you need to have power in your hands, and you don’t have power in your hands if you don’t know what your market value is and haven’t tested that with other interviews and those types of things.
Mindy Jensen: If you are essential to the business, then you will have or should have a stack of papers, emails, commendations, etc., from people that you have been working with saying, thank you so much for doing this, you were such a lifesaver doing that. When we interviewed Erin Lowry most recently on the show, she suggested keeping a praise folder in your inbox on your email. So whenever anybody sends you an email saying, thank you so much for doing this, or you did such a great job here, you just save it to your praise folder. It’s hard when it’s raise time to remember who sent all of these emails, but it’s really easy to open up that folder and print those all out and share it with your boss. Hey Scott, I’d like a raise. Here is a stack of papers from everybody that I’ve worked with saying how awesome I am. Scott, as the boss, will look at these and say, wow, she really is essential to the business, I am going to give her a raise. Or you don’t have this stack of papers: Hey Scott, I want a raise. No.
Scott Trench: Yeah. One other kind of CEO perspective here, right, is what does essential to the business mean, right? A good business does not have anyone that is essential to the business, right? Like if I were to get hit by a bus, do you think BiggerPockets would cease to function?
Mindy Jensen: We’d have a day for you. Yeah.
Scott Trench: I’m not essential to the business, right? So I think that this concept of essential can give people too big of a head in these situations. Your value is the market value of your skill set relative to the alternatives in a business, right? An accountant—if you’re the only accountant at a business, you are essential to the business. The business needs an accounting function. But that doesn’t mean that if you’re getting paid $60,000, you can tell your employer, I need $120,000 a year, or I’m leaving here. They’re going to say, see you later, and hire somebody else for $60,000 to do that essential function, even if you’re good at it. Right. And so that’s just what I think, where I would just caution this person: get out of that mindset of I’m essential to the business. Reframe it to, I’m excellent at my job and my market value is here, and I’m only being paid here. And I know that market value is here because I see other jobs posted for this that I’m qualified for. And I’ve even gone down the path potentially of getting interviews for and getting offers for roles at that position. Now you have that. And then your employer can say one of two things: I agree, your market value is exactly where you just said, and we should pay you that and we value you. Or they can say, wow, that’s awesome that your market value has increased so much. We don’t have a position that can pay that amount at this point in time. I’ll give you a reference or recommendation letter. Good luck at the new company. Right? That’s a much healthier way to approach a position like this, and puts the power in your hands instead of saying, I’m essential to this business, I want a raise from my boss. That puts all the power into your boss’s hands and will make you feel resentful if they say no.
Mindy Jensen: Another thing is, how did you ask for the raise? Or did you ask for the raise? You received a 2% raise yearly. Have you asked for an increase? And how are you asking? Hey Scott, can I have a raise? Is not the right way to ask. Hey Scott, I’d like to talk to you about my compensation. Here are the reasons why I think I deserve a raise, and here’s the amount that I want. It is based on market value. It is based on what I am bringing to the company. It’s based on the cuts that I have made or the increases that I have brought in, or whatever it is. But “I want a raise” is not enough. I want a raise for all of these reasons, and here’s the amount that I want. You can’t just say, I want a raise. But yeah, you should be absolutely looking at other companies to see what they’re offering. If you’re making $40,000 a year and the going rate for your company is $80,000, like Scott said, you’re probably not gonna get that and you should move. Yeah.
Scott Trench: And again, reframe it to, here’s the market value for my position and here are the outputs that I’ve produced. Good luck finding someone else at this capability set at this price range. You wouldn’t find them. Like that, that’s how we’ve got to be thinking about this. Not, I’m essential.
Mindy Jensen: Yeah.
Scott Trench: I want a bigger raise. That gets you nowhere, right? I would have a very hard time having that conversation with somebody. I’d have a much… our company would try to be more proactive on the front of understanding where someone is relative to their career journey, what the positions open are, and what the opportunities for advancement are. So it sounds like their employer is also not doing a very good job at that fundamental HR task, but also this person is allowing themselves to stagnate at that. So either they need to take a stand for themselves with a very clear understanding of market value, or jump ship.
Mindy Jensen: Yeah, exactly. Scott, this was a super fun episode and I would love for us to do another one just like this. Scott, should we get out of here?
Scott Trench: Let’s do it.
Mindy Jensen: Okay. That wraps up this super fun episode of the BiggerPockets Money Podcast. He is Scott Trench, and I am Mindy Jensen saying, see you later, alligator.
Scott Trench: If you enjoyed today’s episode, please give us a five-star review on Spotify or Apple. And if you’re looking for even more money content, feel free to visit our YouTube channel at youtube.com/biggerpocketsmoney.
Mindy Jensen: BiggerPockets Money was created by Mindy Jensen and Scott Trench, produced by Kaylin Bennett, editing by Exodus Media, copywriting by Nate.
Scott Trench: Weintraub.
Mindy Jensen: Lastly, a big thank you to the BiggerPockets team for making this show possible.
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Mindy Jensen: When you’re ready to start your business, Northwest Registered Agent helps you do more than just file paperwork. You get all the tools to build a real business identity from day one—a business address, website, phone number, operating agreement, free guides, and more at no extra cost. Northwest Registered Agent has been helping small business owners and entrepreneurs launch and grow businesses for nearly 30 years. They are the largest registered agent and LLC service in the US, with over 1,500 corporate guides. These are real people who know your local laws and can help you in your business every step of the way. With Northwest, your business is set up to stand on its own from day one. That means your home address, personal email, and phone number stay private. Don’t pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for what you can get from Northwest for free. Visit northwestregisteredagent.com/moneyfree and start using free resources to build something amazing. Get more with Northwest Registered Agent at northwestregisteredagent.com/moneyfree.
