Mindy: Hello, hello, hello. And welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money Podcast, my dear listeners. On today’s episode, we talk about the five money archetypes. These archetypes are similar to the five love languages and can be just as powerful a tool in starting great money conversations with yourself, your spouse, your friends, and your family.
Scott: Yeah, these five archetypes are the result of a quiz put together by Jean Chatzky, who has extensive experience in finance journalism and who is the founder of hermoney.com. She’s also a repeat guest here on Bigger Pockets Money. She partnered with a PhD in sociology to put this quiz together. The output of this test really spoke to Mindy and it nailed who I am. Mindy says that that she doesn’t usually like these tests. This one was different and that’s why we’re going to talk about it today.
Mindy: Yeah, I really, really felt that this encapsulated my entire money soul. My name is Mindy Jensen, and with me, as always, is my producer co-host, Scott Trench.
Scott: Great to be here, Mindy. Always like being a connoisseur of finance knowledge alongside you. By the way, those are two of the archetypes. All right, we’re here to make financial independence less scary, less just for somebody else. Introduce you to every money story because we truly believe financial freedom is attainable for everyone, no matter when or where you’re starting or what your archetype is.
Mindy: Jean Chatzky, welcome back to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. I am so excited to talk to you today.
Guest: Thank you. I’m really excited to be here. I think this is going to be fun, just saying.
Mindy: This is going to be so much fun. You created a quiz that people can use to figure out their money type. And before we dig into the money type specifically, I’d love to hear from you, what are the benefits of categorizing ourselves into a specific personality archetype?
Guest: So, as fans of the love languages, and there are many, will know, we are all made up of some factors that are wired in, right? That are totally nature, and some factors that are totally nurture, that are based on the way that we were raised, usually when we were really, really young children. And understanding these things about ourselves and and even about our partners, if we can get our partners to go through the diagnostic as well, understanding these factors gives us a tool in our toolbox that helps us understand why we behave in particular ways that may frustrate us or perplex us or excite us. It helps us change our behavior in in ways that can actually help us get where we want to go. And particularly in important fields like money or like relationships that can be so frustrating, having this level of understanding is really key.
Mindy: I always have a little bit of skepticism when I take these quizzes, and I was shocked at how spot on you were when you when it revealed my uh, my truth. I’m like, I can’t argue with this, even one little bit.
Guest: Yeah, I hear this, I hear this all the time. and this is where I take a step back and say, thank you for giving me credit for money type, but I’m not the brains behind money type. I we worked the the money type is is at hermoney.com. Um, we worked with a PhD who specializes in archetypes to develop this. Um, and she spent a really, really long time not just developing the questionnaire and the test, but then testing it on hundreds of people to make sure that people would get the kind of results that you got. Um, I mean, it went through a lot of a lot of testing to make sure that actually it worked. so, so it does.
Scott: Um, you know, are there any risks associated with this? Like, you know, do people believe or take their their archetype too far and allow that to infuse in their identity or is it is there are there things you should be aware of when you take a test like this?
Guest: I think the risk is and and I think that’s a great question, by the way, Scott, I think the risk is that you say, well, that’s just the way I am. I can’t do anything about it. That’s just the way I am. Um, and that is something that you can fall back on in in a lot of different situations, right? I mean, I I’m thinking of of a woman that I know who I have, um, who who was raised by a mom who was very, very critical of her, um, particularly when it came to her weight. And now she is very critical of her daughter when it comes to her weight. and I said to her, like, you hated when your mother did that to you, why do you keep doing this? And she says, I can’t help it, right? And I think that’s the risk. The risk is that we learn something about ourselves and then we think we can’t help it. But actually, the point of money type is to enable you to help it. The point is to give you insight into the way that you naturally tend to be, so that if those tendencies aren’t benefiting you, um, when it comes to seeking the financial future that you want, you have the wherewithal to understand and make some changes.
Mindy: And now we’re going to take a quick break. When we’re back, Jean will go through each of the money types for us and we’ll each determine where we fall within the archetypes.
Scott: And we’re back with Jean Chatzky. Before the break, we talked about why identifying your type is important and now we’re going to dig into the strengths and risks of each type.
Mindy: Well, let’s go through the money types. What are they? Let’s quickly first list them and then we’ll get into each one.
Guest: So there are there are five money types. There’s the nurturer, the producer, the visionary, the connoisseur, and the independent. Do you have an order that you’d like to talk about them in?
Scott: Let’s start with producer because Mindy and I are both producers and I have a suspicion that people who are spending their time listening to money podcasts might skew heavily towards producer.
Guest: I suspect that you’re right. So, um, producers are grounded, they’re diligent, they’re consistent, um, when it comes to their money. They like having money. Um, they like watching their money grow. and I relate to this because I I often will talk about, um, visiting my accounts. That that I think that that’s an important part of the money process. It’s a it’s an important part for me just to visit my accounts and and notice that the amounts are are moving in the right direction. Um, they are methodical. They tend to be conservative. They want to, um, minimize their exposure to risk and sometimes they have to push themselves to take enough risks. Um, we, uh, we talk, uh, in the money type diagnostic about, um, strengths and weaknesses and pleasures and fears. So, if it’s helpful, I can sort of, um, talk about those. Um, so the the pleasure, um, when it when it comes to a producer is really racking it up, right? But but also managing it. Um, like figuring out, am I getting the best yield on this high yield savings account? Like that for a producer, that is the idea of a really good day. Um, the the big uh, fear is losing money. Um, and not just losing money itself, although that is that is fearful, but losing control of money, uh, of your money to somebody else. Um, they uh, sabotage themselves, um, by saving compulsively, um, or as I said, sometimes becoming overly conservative. Um, and the their gift, their money gift is the ability to um, teach us the value in planning for the future. Um, so, so those are those are your, uh, those are your producers.
Scott: So, I I felt like Jean was almost reading my diary except for the fact that I I fear not optimizing my portfolio more than I fear loss or loss of control, um, uh around that. And that may be because I’m very high visionary in addition to the producer. I have 93 producer and 87 visionary. So could we do visionary next and see if that
Guest: We absolutely can. But as before we do it, let me just ask you a question. When you’re thinking about optimizing your portfolio, is is being able to do that a key part of how you see yourself? Somebody who is able to optimize their portfolio, somebody who’s like really good like right? So this is, yeah, then then that’s that’s the visionary side of you. Um, visionaries see money as a tool for self-expression and as a way to follow their passion. And clearly that is a passion point, um for you. They they are um driven to do what they love for work. Um and I I think we can probably all relate to this. But they’re also really, really excited when something that they are working on turns out to be a financial success. Right? So it’s it’s it’s about doing work they love but also about getting compensated for doing that work that they love in any way, shape or form. Um, the the visionary’s money pleasure is um when others recognize um their worth and their value. Maybe others invest in their in their product, in their projects. Um, their fear is that that element that somebody else might recognize is stuck inside of them and that others don’t get a chance to see it. Um, uh, vision visionaries, um, you know, fear dying while still holding on to that one amazing idea and not letting that amazing idea, uh, see daylight. Um, sometimes, uh, when we talk about sabotage patterns, visionaries can take excessive risks, um, that may make them uh financially vulnerable. But um, when it comes to their gifts, they also have the ability to encourage other people to take necessary risks, risks that they might not, uh, they might not otherwise, uh, take. and and they’re your friend that you’re going to call when you want a solution to a complex problem. When you want somebody to sit on the phone with you or sit on Zoom with you and really brainstorm the hell out of some idea to get you to a solution, you’re calling the visionary.
Scott: Yeah, I think that the combination there, yeah, is a good, is a good, uh, uh yeah, I think that that nails who I, at least how I see myself.
Mindy: I want to go to nurturer next because that’s my next one. I’m 52% nurturer.
Guest: Okay. So nurturers, just like it sounds, um they see money as a tool to help others. So Mindy, this is why you are sitting behind this podcast microphone, right? Because you’re a nurturer and you’re you’re putting all of this out there in the world to help other people. But sometimes it’s partners, sometimes it’s children, sometimes families, coworkers, employees, or communities, and relationships are paramount for nurturers. They are just, they are just at the top of the list. And sometimes they um are aware that the financial decisions that they make help other people more than they help themselves and may even hurt themselves. So as we get into what we need to know about ourselves if we’re nurturers, that’s that’s big. Um, nurturers just love taking care of other people. They love providing for other people, giving material things to other people, um, making sure that the people that they care about are safe. That’s 100% nurture. and and on the fear side, they fear letting people down and not having enough in the way of resources to support the people that they that they love and they care about. Um, uh, in terms of sabotage, you know, they give too much. Um, sometimes they give too much. and and I I relate to this a lot when I talk to people on, um, on my podcast, on Her Money, uh, who are parents who have just are still supporting adult children or who stepped out of the workforce to, um, to care for for parents and have have not found a way back in. Um, and and wanted to do it, desperately, desperately wanted to do it, but realized they probably were not doing the best thing for themselves at the same time. Um, money gifts, the nurturer has a lot of money gifts. They teach us um the value of giving. They teach us the value of using money to give and to protect other people.
Mindy: I keep looking for fault in this, but you keep hitting it.
Scott: Let’s do an independent next, which by the way, I think is not really the financial independent definition that most people think about. It’s more I will almost like categorize it more as adventurer um to a certain degree. But, yeah, go ahead. I’d love to hear your thoughts on that one.
Guest: Yeah. So, um, I I think that I think that you’re right. I mean, when you guys talk about independence, you talk about, um, the the FI definition of independent, and um, and that’s not where we’re going here. Here we’re really talking, although there are some some close parallels. Independence, um, really value freedom and autonomy, right? So if if we’re talking fire, but we’re putting the retire early part of it to the side, you do get to, um, a similar definition of of independence of wanting to be able to live life on your own terms, um, to uh, to have the freedom to uh, to follow their own, um, path. And they they do resist having money sort of dictate their choices in life. And and for many people who are true independents, they also have had to acknowledge that the way that they behave around money may, may not make sense to other people. Um, that other people may may look at it and think this is, um, this is not this this just doesn’t register with me. So, um, independents, uh, get pleasure in adventures and experiences. They’re definitely, um, the the new experience get happiness from from spending money on experiences type of people. Um, they they fear, um, giving up more than they have to to have more money. Um, and I I think that’s a very, um, FI sort of a concept. uh, so, so that’s sort of where they sit. In terms of their sabotage pattern, um, they they can uh, sometimes fail to pay enough attention to their money overall and um, by doing so, by living so much in the moment, uh, they create financial hurdles for themselves down the road, um, which can be difficult to come back from. Um, but uh, their gift is that they challenge us to really think about how important money is in the scheme of life and in the scheme of all things.
Scott: Scott, what percentage of connoisseur are you? I’m 2%, which is shocking to me only that it’s all the way up to 2%. I thought I’d be zero.
Scott: I’m five times more connoisseur than you at 10%.
Mindy: Okay, Jean, I know that the connoisseur is spending. Tell us more about that one.
Guest: Yeah, connoisseur is um is is largely spending. I mean, they they love money, right? And there is really nothing wrong with that. They love having money, but they also love spending it on on things and experiences and and services and and they love saving it too. Um, but they like saving it with a specific goal in mind. So, so when connoisseurs are saving they are um they have a picture in their mind of of what comes next, what follows it. Um like independence, uh they’re their money pleasure is in investing in enjoyable experiences and and nice quality products. And I I think it’s important to remember no matter how you score on the on the connoisseur side that there are, there are some people who are experience people and there are other people who are throw pillow people. Um I I uh I think it’s important when we are going to uh get the most happiness out of our utility of money to kind of understand if you’re an experience person or if you’re a throw pillow person because that should sort of dictate using your money in a way that lines up um with your values and your priorities. Um, connoisseurs fear never being able to have the lifestyle that they want. Um, there’s a little FOMO, uh, with our with our connoisseurs. Um, their their sabotage pattern, no surprise, is that they can fall into overspending, um, and that can compromise their financial futures. And and their money gift is that connoisseurs are the ones who show us that money actually can be fun. Um, and and uh, and I think we have to thank them for that.
Scott: Mindy and I are Costco connoisseurs.
Mindy: Jean, what is your, what is your architect?
Guest: So I am, um, primarily a producer, um, but connoisseur is actually my second type. Um, which is is a combination that um, a combination that that Jennifer Selike, the researcher who developed um the money type said she doesn’t see a ton of. Um, but uh, but I I find it’s sort of yin and yang for me. It’s sort of balances me out. I like that I enjoy saving as much if not more as I enjoy spending, but that it I can I have the ability to sort of do do both.
Scott: Awesome. Sounds like it seems like a great combination. You’re going to work hard and com- and mass the money and then spend it.
Mindy: Work hard, play hard.
Guest: There you go.
Scott: Love it. Are there any, um, trends you’ve seen on how women categorize into these accounts, these these archetypes as opposed to men?
Guest: Um, I think more women tend to be nurturers, um, and and that’s just back to again, hunter gatherer kind of, um, kind of roots, right? We’re just like women tend to, um, really value, um, safety and security for ourselves, we tend to value safety and security particularly for, um, our our children and the other people that we love and that we care about.
Scott: Stay with us. We’ll be back after a quick break. And when we’re back, Jean will be telling us what to do after we figure out our money type.
Mindy: All right, we’re back and we’re talking with Jean Chatzky about money types, what they are, and how you can use them to enhance your understanding of your financial situation.
Mindy: Okay, so we take the quiz and we find out what our moneyy type is. How can we use this information to enhance our financial situation or our lives in general or alter our relationship with money?
Guest: So, when you take the quiz, um, it comes with a diagnostic. I should point out, it’s a free tool, right? We want everybody to know their money type. We think it’s really, really helpful. When you take it, you get a diagnostic which tells you the things that I’ve just told you about the type. But you also sort of get a playbook of what you might want to do to help yourself um next, right? To to think about making your life better. So, let’s say you are a nurturer, right? And and you know that you are um likely to use too many of your resources to help other people, or you’re likely to uh to actually notice yourself doing that, you can put some guardrails up. Um, you can decide that yes, I will help people with my free cash, but I’m not going to go into debt to help other people. Um, you can create a slush fund for helping other people, a separate pile of money and decide just like you might have a separate giving budget, this is the money that I am allocating to help other people over here and my retirement money is over here. Right? So you know that you’re you’re sort of setting up those those rules for yourself. Um similarly uh with the uh with the connoisseur, right? Um, I I I think it’s important to again, understand this is where I’m likely to fail, right? I am likely to overspend. I’m particularly likely to overspend when I am using a credit card rather than a debit card. So, put up a guard rail where you decide, okay, for these um discretionary expenses, I’m either going to put the money in a separate account, I’m only going to use debit. I’m going to impose a 24-hour rule or a 72-hour rule for these particular type of purchases to try to rein myself in. Um and and these are real tactical solutions that work because you understand where you’re likely to faulter, right? It’s it’s like being a runner and understanding that you have to buy the shoes for pronators because you are a pronator rather than the shoes that are for people who just run in neutral all the time. Um, let’s see, if you’re a visionary, um, and uh, you are, um, a lot of visionaries interestingly are are entrepreneurs. Um, and they’re entrepreneurs who put all of their energy and all of their money into their businesses or into their side gigs, but they tend to think that their businesses or even their side gigs are their retirement plan, and they don’t necessarily need a retirement plan on the side. You know, they can open up an IRA, they can open up a SEP, and they can make sure that they are putting money into that automatically just like you would with a 401K so that it actually gets funded and you don’t have to um, you don’t have to make a good, good and smart decision every time you want to make a contribution and same deal with taxes. Um, sometimes, uh, visionaries get so enamored with what they’re doing and with the money that’s coming in, they forget that uh, oh, this is 1099 income. Nobody’s taking anything out. I have to pay taxes when tax time rolls around. Um, aggregate and separate uh, separate that money. Um, for producers, uh, like all of us, um, target date funds, uh, if if you’re, if you know that you are not the kind of person who’s going to take enough risk, get yourself into a solution that’s going to take enough risk for you, right? It could be a managed account, it could be a, it could be a target date fund, it could be a balanced fund, but put yourself, it could be a robo advisor or a or a financial advisor, put yourself in in a situation where you know that that the risk that you need to take is actually is actually going to get taken. And and um and for those independents, um, you know, we we know that uh that for a lot of independents, um, investing feels a little too corporate. Um it doesn’t feel in touch uh with their values. Um these are the kind of folks uh who might be attracted to um an ESG kind of fund or to values-based investing. and and there’s a lot of research on how to do that in a way that you don’t compromise on return. So, um, so these are just, you know, just a few thoughts, but there are a lot more out there, um, in in our in our diagnostic tools.
Scott: So I I’ve noticed that with other kind of these these personality tests that I’ve done in the past, you know, like the Myers Briggs or whatever, that I was I’ll be like right on the bubble for whether I’m an extrovert or introvert or whatever, and I think I got that on this one. Um, but that they slowly shift over time, right? Like I used to be an an I and now I’m more of an E, for example, extrovert instead of an introvert um, on that. Do you think that that you can that that changes, that that that people’s archetypes in this area will also change over time as their wealth increases or their life progresses?
Guest: I think so. Um, I I think and it’s not just as their wealth increases or their life progresses, but I think it’s as they learn the tools that this test has the ability to teach, right? So, just to go back to my little, you know, me search because it’s easiest to sort of talk about this in in terms of what what I’ve learned, but I have had to push myself to take risk, right? It’s now easier to take risk because I’ve learned that by taking risk, nothing terribly bad has happened. So over time, it, you know, it’s still hard to do, but I’m able to do more of it. and I think that’s um, that’s the kind of shift that you start to see.
Scott: Um, should we be trying to change our archetype in any categories?
Guest: No, I mean, you are the one who said these are neutral, right? These are not judgy because everybody is made up of, I I think the most frustrating thing, and I you guys didn’t mention it, which is interesting to me, but I think that the most frustrating thing about our test is that, uh, your values add up to more than 100. Um, it’s not I I always I initially I was just like, why? Right? Why why can’t it why can’t it add up to 100? I want, I want nice round numbers. And and it just doesn’t work that way because your parts are bigger, you know, are are create a sum that’s greater than a whole. Um, so sometimes you’ll lean into certain parts of your personality and sometimes you’ll lean into certain other parts of your personality. and I think it’s nice to be able to understand that you’re comprised of various facets that you can draw on when you need them. Um, right? I mean, I think we all know sort of introverted extroverts or extroverted introverts, right? who who when they are going out to a party draw on that part of them that allows them to be sociable and and have a good time before they get home and then um, collapse and and have to sort of recover from that kind of an event. Um, you you you are able to tap into these different different parts of you and that’s kind of that’s kind of nice.
Mindy: Yeah, I thought the amounts were like, I’m 89% producer. I thought it was I have 89% of the traits of producer, and I have 52% of the traits of nurturer.
Guest: No, that’s right. But but a lot of times people see it and they’re like, well, what do you mean? It’s not 100?
Mindy: And it adds up to 188%, which I take to mean I am 188% awesome.
Guest: Yes, absolutely.
Mindy: So how can people use this quiz to understand their loved ones better?
Guest: Well, first of all, you should you should take it, your loved ones should take it. You should exchange reports. Um, and then I think you just use it to open up and have a conversation. Um, because if you are if you’re somebody for whom taking risk is not just easy, but really, really pleasurable, right? You’re a jump out of the airplane kind of a kind of a person. Um, and you’re married or you’re with somebody who could never see themselves doing that and and you know, who is who’s petrified. Having this sort of insight into them, a deeper kind of an insight into them enables you to say, okay, I kind of get this about you and maybe even I kind of accept it about you, and I can learn to work with this in a different way. I can understand this is important to you so that um, even if it’s not super important to me, I can give you this. Um, and and I I I come back to the love languages for a second because I think a lot of people are by this point so familiar with that best-selling book the five love languages and and that some people are, um, their love language is words of affirmation, right? They need to be told over and over again, I love you, you’re amazing. and even if you are not that person, if you’re with that kind of a person, if you can get yourself to be a sayer of those things, then your life is going to go more smoothly. So you learn what makes your partner tick money wise from our our diagnostic and then you can give them more of that and maybe they can give you more of what you need and then maybe your financial life isn’t as fraught as it might otherwise be.
Scott: Awesome, love it. And where, you know, this is this is such a powerful tool. You know, I I thought it really, you know, nailed who I am, um, or how I at least think of myself, um, uh, with with regards to money. Where can people find this quiz to go and take it if they’re interested?
Guest: moneytype.hermoney.com.
Scott: Moneytype.hermoney.com. And we will link to that of course in the show notes here at Bigger Pockets Money. Jean, thank you so much for coming on the show today. We really appreciate it and um, yeah, thank you, thank you.
Guest: Oh, thank you guys for having me. I I uh I I’m so glad that it worked for you and I I appreciate the the interest and the conversation.
Mindy: Jean, this was a lot of fun and thank you for creating such a spot-on tool. I really had a good time taking the quiz and going through all the results and I am excited to go back and click on all those little things and find more about uh the different archetypes that I have and I’m going to make my husband take this quiz too and see how we match up. I’m guessing we’re going to be pretty close.
Guest: Awesome.
Mindy: All right. Thank you, Jean, and we will talk to you soon.
Scott: Scott, that was a lot of fun. And I have to tell you, I was a little bit leery or skeptical of taking that test when I first got the link when we were preparing for the show. But I took it, I answered the questions. The questions made sense, unlike some of the other tests that personality tests that I have taken in the past. And when I got the answers, I was like, uh, yep, yep, yep, yep, nailed it, 100%. I really was surprised by how well it captured my money soul. Yeah, and let’s be real. If you’re listening to Bigger Pockets Money, you you’ve already have done all the work to research yourself around these other personality tests. Take this one, too. It’s a good it’s a good another primer and I think we’ll we’ll nail how you feel about money pretty accurately.
Mindy: All right, Scott, should we get out of here?
Scott: Let’s do it.
Mindy: That wraps up this episode of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. He is Scott Trench and I am Mindy Jenson saying, see you soon, future Tycoon.
Scott: If you enjoyed today’s episode, please give us a five-star review on Spotify or Apple. And if you’re looking for even more money content, feel free to visit our YouTube channel at youtube.com/biggerpocketsmoney.
Mindy: Bigger Pockets Money was created by Mindy Jenson and Scott Trench, produced by Calen Bennett, editing by Exodus Media, copywriting by Nate Winetrub. Lastly, a big thank you to the Bigger Pockets team for making this show possible.
