On today’s episode, we’re talking about creative, income producing assets outside of real estate. That’s right, Mindy. We’re talking to Nick Loper from Side Hustle Nation and how you can start thinking creatively about on and offline income generating side hustles with little or no money to start.
Hello, hello, hello and welcome to the BiggerPockets Money Podcast. My name is Mindy Jensen, and with me today is my fabulous co-host, Amanda Wolf.
Mindy: Hi, Mindy. Always good to be here. I’m excited to be talking all about side hustles today because we are here to make financial independence less scary unless just for somebody else. To introduce you to every money story, because we truly believe financial freedom is attainable for everyone, no matter where or when you’re starting.
Mindy: Nick Loper from Side Hustle Nation, welcome back to the BiggerPockets Money podcast. It is always good to talk to you, and I am so excited to have you today.
Nick: I am excited to be here, like we said, 500 episodes ago or something. It’s, it’s great to be back.
Mindy: Yeah, we need to get you on a little bit more frequently than every 500 episodes. You know, Nick, here at bigger pockets, we talk about real estate all the time, but you have brought us some interesting income producing assets besides real estate, and I would love to first define what you mean by asset.
Nick: Yeah, asset, something that you own or control that pays you every month, every quarter, every year, you know, whatever increment that you want to look at it, but something that you own or control that spins off income.
Amanda: And I feel like the word asset is thrown around a lot, like in the media and social media, in the news, like what is the difference for you from like an asset and a liability? We count some things as assets, some things as liability, and how much time would you say that it takes to require a good asset, like one that you would consider worthy?
Nick: You can look at it both ways. Like there’s the, you know, it takes money to make money side of the equation, right? I can go out and buy a piece of property. I can go out and buy, you know, a dividend paying stock, and you know, that would be an asset. Sure, it’s spinning off quarterly cash flow. And then there’s the sweat equity side of things, or you know, the the fixer upper type of side of things, you know, to bring it back to real estate, where it’s like, okay, could I create a digital asset? Could I go out and acquire some, you know, non traditional rental asset, which I think we could talk about. But you can scale things up. And like the whole time piece of the equation is really what gets me excited about the side hustle because I guess I’m trading for hours, trading hours for dollars at my day job. It’s like, how do I get outside of that? Like if, you know, Warren Buffett says, you know, you got to find a way to make money when you sleep or else you’re gonna work until you die. And you gotta figure this out. And, you know, think about income as a pie chart. And, you know, everybody, most people start out with, you know, that 100% of the pie chart is is active income. It’s trading time for money. It’s like, well, if I eventually want to stop working or have the option to stop working, like, I got to figure out the time leveraged or the quote unquote passive piece of that pie and keep growing that over time.
Amanda: Totally. And I think it’s like when you look at it, it’s like, you either have time or you have money. So if you have money, you can use it to buy other income producing assets. But if you don’t have a lot of money, that’s when you have time and you can put some of that sweat equity into it like what you’re stating. So, um, I’m sure that you’re going to share lots of really great ideas on some of those people out there who maybe don’t have a lot of extra money to put into, you know, creating some income producing assets, um, and who do have extra time to be able to build out those assets. So, um, I would love to kind of talk a little bit about some of those digital assets that you just mentioned.
Nick: Yeah, for me, the biggest digital asset has been, you know, a website presence that can earn traffic and page views and monetize with advertising and affiliate relationships. And you eventually, I mean, once you have the attention, you can sell your own products and services. You got lots of options there. But a digital asset could be that website asset. It could be the, uh, you know, a digital course that you could create. It could be, we’ve had people selling, you know, printable files and spreadsheet templates. It could be, uh, you know, a print on demand, um, uh, like t-shirt design that you that you have made, you know, create something once, sell it over and over again. Like that’s the type of business that I really like because it has that, uh, that time leverage where it doesn’t feel like, okay, I’ve got to provide this service to a client and I’m getting paid in exchange for that time. It’s like, no, I want to create something once and have it go to work for me.
Amanda: Yeah. And I think we all know like that that possibility exists, right? But but I feel like people sometimes get stuck on just starting. Do you have any advice on like how to actually get started doing one of those things?
Nick: The way like an example from the personal finance space, we talked to Emily McDermitt on the side hustle show and she created this Etsy shop and she was selling these through her own website as well, but this, you know, shop selling, uh, budgeting spreadsheets templates, basically. Like here’s your, you know, monthly financial, uh, dashboard that you created. Like, you know, made it look all pretty in in Excel and in Google Doc or Google Sheets and she’s like, well, I could sell this thing, you know, for 15 bucks, and you know, add on this extra bundle for 27. I was like, shoot, you know, these are you know, customizable in the in the hands of the customers and like they could, you know, fill this in. But it was like, dang, I, I love me some some rows and columns, I gotta get on this side hustle. So it’s really interesting to see what you could create and maybe you already have these assets as part of your day job or as part of your business that you’re running. You had an example from the, you know, $1,000, 100 ways book, he was like selling originally, you know, this spreadsheet, you know, rehab cost estimator template. And it was like, okay, I think this is what it’s going to cost to bring this new property up to rentable or resellable condition. And I think he eventually turned that into a a software business on its own, but validated first through this, you know, like anybody could create an Excel sheet based on this and then turn it into a, a more, uh, higher ticket SaaS product down the road.
Mindy: Okay, I’m going to jump in here and say not everybody can create an Excel sheet, which is why these sell so well. If you have Excel knowledge, you are leaps and bounds above somebody like me who doesn’t use it hardly ever.
Nick: That is shocking to me, Mindy. No.
Mindy: Not a spreadsheet nerd, like so many people in this uh community are, but that’s okay. Not everybody’s a spreadsheet nerd, but I like to use it when it’s been set up for me. So this kind of thing would be perfect for me. Oh, I want to track my spending. Uh, if anybody ever check out my tracking my spending tracker, I didn’t set that up. My friend, Mr. Waffles on Wednesday set that up for me because he does this all the time. That’s a really great example of using what you know, even though it might seem mundane. Oh, well, everybody knows Excel. No, everybody doesn’t know Excel. Not everybody knows how to do design, not everybody knows how to do a lot of these things, which is why you can make so much money on these products because you’re doing it once, you’re spending a lot of time making it look beautiful, and then you sell it over and over again. You’ve already put your time into it. So you sell it once for $5, you just made $5 for however many hours it took you. But once you sell it like 500,000 times, you’ve made so much money for one product. Now, you know, bump that out a bunch of other products and you’ve got a real side hustle because you only spend the time when you’re designing it and then you put it out there for the world and say, I will sell it as many times as I can.
Nick: The broader label that we could apply here would be like selling your sawdust or selling your digital sawdust where it’s like if there is a function that you’re already doing for your day job or for your business, like what are the byproducts of doing that that other people might find value in? So we just had um, Liz Wilcox on the show, she’s like this professional copywriter for hire, like, I’ll write your email, you know, sales emails and stuff like that. And what she turned around and started selling were these like templates. Like if you need if you write a weekly newsletter, you know, for your church, for your community organization, for your PTA, for, you know, your website, you’re going to need these templates, like it’s hard to open up that blank screen and the blinking cursor. It’s like, look, here’s the proven model that I’ve used for, you know, my past 10 years in business. Just fill in the blanks to make it relevant to your audience. And she started selling these for like nine bucks a month. And she had like a thousand, like 4,000 members or something when we recorded. It was, it was nuts. And it was a cool example of just, you know, something that she was already creating, but just, you know, selling it to a slightly different audience. I thought it was really cool.
Amanda: No, that is, that is awesome. So, I have a question then, as far as creating digital products, how many do you feel like you have to have or like what type of a mix of products do you have to have in order for it to, um, really be worth it? Do you have like a big mix of them in your own shops? Or do you have to niche down or do you spread out or what’s the magic formula there?
Nick: I imagine there’s gonna be an 80/20 to all this thing, where you know, 20% of the things that you create are gonna account for 80% of the sales. The problem is, you don’t know what those 20% are gonna be until you create a bunch. And so Noah Kagan calls it like the rule of 100. You know, put out 100 YouTube videos, create 100 product products, write 100 blog posts. Like, you got to do the thing long enough to kind of get into the the flow where instead, you know, like, oh, I made five and none of them sold and so I threw in the towel. It’s like, did you, did you give it enough of a chance? Because if had I given up after five episodes, um, you know, nobody would be tuning in. Like, you know, it wouldn’t have turned into the life-changing experiment that it that it did. So you got to give it a a little bit of a chance there. And one thing that’s kind of been bouncing around with is you’re prompting chat GPT for product ideas. Like, hey, I run a business in the side hustle space. Give me some digital product ideas on, you know, something that would be helpful to this audience. And it came back with, um, you know, a business planning template, it came back with like a marketing plan template, it came back with, you know, some, some stuff it was actually, well, dang, these actually aren’t bad ideas, right? And you kind of fill in the gaps for those and go see if there’s any demand.
Amanda: That is genius. Work smarter, not harder for sure. Chat GPT is changing the game on everything I feel like. That is super smart.
Mindy: Yeah, you can plug in a lot of different information to chat GPT. I was able to use it a couple of times and I got some great ideas, I got some like, oooh, not gonna do that, ideas, but still like in one big output, I got like, oh, that’s awesome. That’s awesome. Probably not gonna do that one. That’s awesome. That’s awesome. Yeah. Play around with chat GPT.
After the break, Nick Loper will tell us about his favorite digital assets and the ways you can use your expertise to make money.
Scott: You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy. Just use Indeed. When it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need. That means you can stop struggling to get your job noticed on other job sites. Indeed’s sponsored jobs helps you stand out and hire the right people quickly. Your job post jumps straight to the top of the page where your ideal candidates are looking. And it works. Sponsored jobs on Indeed get 45% more applications than non-sponsored posts. The best part, no monthly subscriptions or long-term contracts. You only pay for results. And speaking of results, in the minute I’ve been talking to you, 23 people just got hired through Indeed worldwide. There’s no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at indeed.com/biggerpockets. Just go to indeed.com/biggerpockets right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. indeed.com/biggerpockets. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring, Indeed is all you need.
Welcome back to the BiggerPockets Money Podcast.
Mindy: Okay, let’s move on to royalties, Nick. What, how does someone earn royalties?
Nick: You can earn royalties anytime a work or idea of yours is used or purchased. So, you know, the most famous example is probably like, you know, famous songs. Anytime a song is played on the radio or wherever or on Spotify, like the artist and the record company like you’re getting a little slice of that. But for, you know, solo content creators, it could be a book that you have written, it could be, uh, a piece of music that you’ve created, it could be, uh, a picture, photography, video that you’ve created. And on those fronts, like very much a volume game. The people I talked to making any sort of money in stock photography, it’s like, well, I had a portfolio of thousands and thousands of units and the same 80/20 rule applies, but it’s a, it’s a viable path to go. An interesting way to go on the royalty front is, uh, like licensing a physical product idea. I’ve done a few episodes on this. Um, we talked with Stephen Key is the founder of a company called InventRight and just helps modern day inventors get their products created. And I thought it was so interesting. It’s like not going through the manufacturing process, not going through the marketing process, not having to build this actual thing, but go find a company that already creates something really similar and pitching them the idea. And so I was looking it up before this call, like if you, uh, Google like Hasbro submit ideas, like they have a dedicated page on their website, like built for inventors to come and pitch them the next thing because their way of crowd sourcing different ideas and I think they’re paying a kind of a a low low lower royalty of like one and a half percent of sales, like as their template contract there. But Stephen says, hey, you know, four or five percent may be more average if you’re going out and doing this proactive outreach. But it was like, dang, okay, you know, now you can start thinking about all of the pains and problems in your life. Well, how could I make this product slightly better or more useful or just, you know, make a slight evolution to it, a slight pivot to it. Um, and you have somebody else do the bulk of the work there. You’ve just become the idea person.
Amanda: Yeah, I think that’s genius. And I’ll say also like, I feel like when, when you hear royalties, like you think of just music, like you think of famous people and royalties with their music. So I first want to say is maybe if we take it a step back and like what are royalties? And I know you just named a whole bunch of things that, um, you can capitalize on getting royalties on, but what would you say are some of the easiest things to get royalties on? And like what exactly are royalties?
Nick: So royalties, my understanding or my definition would be, you know, getting a portion of the sale or usage rights anytime your idea or product gets sold. So a personal example, you know, I’ve got half a dozen books up for sale on Amazon on the topic of side hustles and productivity, right? And so every time that they sell, like I get a little bit of a royalty from from Amazon for these self-published books.
Mindy: Nick, I’m glad you brought that up. I know you have at least one book on Amazon. How long did it take you to write that book roughly?
Nick: The most recent one is called The 1000 Hundred Ways, and the disclosure here is I thought this was going to be the easiest book in the world to write, because I’ll just, I’m going to put the call out for stories to the Side Hustle Nation audience, you know, here’s a Google form. And the book is told kind of in parallel where it’s like everybody answers the same set of questions. How’d you come up, you know, what’s your side hustle? How’d you come up with that idea? Um, how’d you get your first customers? What, what’s working today to market the business? What mistakes, uh, did you make along the way? What would you do differently if you had to start over? Uh, and maybe what’s like the best piece of advice you ever received or something. And I was like, this is going to be fantastic. You know, just copy and paste everybody’s answers. But, you know, some people gave you 150 words and some people gave you 1500 words. And so it was like, well, I’m going to need a little bit more detail on this front, like try and make it a little more consistent page to page. But it ended up being a ton of fun to put together. It just took way longer than I expected it to, and it was a really, really fun way to showcase all of the range of ideas from, you know, from the community. We had a guy who’s selling like, you know, grilled cheese sandwiches all the way up to the guy who was renting out portable hot tubs to, you know, any sort of, you know, freelance writing and you guys more traditional side hustles. But it was, was, a ton of fun. And some of the earlier books, you know, starting from that blank page is really intimidating, but you know, I was kind of in a unique position where I was able to crowdfund, um, or, or, repurpose a lot of the stories from the podcast. Like, okay, this is the thesis or this is the story that I want to tell and this is, you know, how can I find examples from the show to, to, you know, back up that argument or back up that story. So it wasn’t, it didn’t feel like starting completely from scratch. So maybe it was, it felt like a tighter timeline than writing the great American novel, if that makes sense.
Mindy: So as an author myself, I have stared at that blank page and been like, I’m totally going to do this. And two hours later, I’m like, well, I got my name down on the paper. Now, what else am I going to say? So it can be a little bit daunting, but once you get over that hump and you print it or you don’t print it, you have eBooks, right, Nick? Am I correct?
Nick: Yeah, eBooks, paperback copies, audiobooks, yeah.
Mindy: Are, oh, okay. The $1000 100 ways, is that only on eBook or is that printed copy as well?
Nick: Yeah, you can get it printed on demand. It’s magical technology.
Mindy: Okay, we used to do print on demand. That is, that is, uh, a great way to kind of get over the hump of, oh, I don’t want an electronic book, I want an actual physical copy without having to stack up a bunch of physical copies and hope that somebody buys it. Uh, print on demand is a really interesting.
Nick: I think there’s a couple on the, on the shelf behind me. I’d, I’d try to order a few and then I like leave them in the airport bookstores as I’m going on flights to make it look like it was actually stocked at the airport bookstore.
Mindy: I love it. I love it. I’m going to start doing that. Nick, both Amanda and I make money in part from blogging, but our blogs have been around for a long time. Can new bloggers still make money?
Nick: It’s definitely tougher than it once was, but you got to imagine another five years, it’s going to be even tougher than it was today. Like it felt crowded in 2013, you know, when I was getting started. So, I don’t, I don’t want to let that be your excuse. Now, what you’re trying to do in, in the eyes of Google is build up enough credibility and trust and authority that they say, okay, your website is going to be among our top 10 answers to the question, whatever somebody typed in. And the way you can do that is by, you know, writing consistently on that topic by guesting on relevant podcasts by getting mentioned in the press, you know, as an expert in your field. And so there’s ways you can go out and, and build that type of authority. But it’s not, it’s definitely not a get-rich-quick side hustle. It’s definitely a long game where you can kind of build this up over time. A couple models that we’ve seen do well recently would be, you know, like, you’re going after very specific long tail type of keywords. Like, um, and stuff that maybe isn’t being reviewed on Amazon. So it could be like this direct to consumer brand versus this direct to consumer brand. And like, hey, we’re, you know, we test these products or a software company that’s not going to be reviewed on Amazon. It’s like, if you can be, um, you got to build authority in that topic. Like one of my websites was this virtual assistant review directory, basically, like Yelp for outsourcing companies. And so it would be, you know, this company versus this company is, you know, this virtual assistant service legit, like, hey, I tested it, here’s my experience, here’s a video with the founder. Like if you can, you know, put your name and face out there front and center, like I think that would be a big help because you know, in an age when anybody can regurgitate, you know, AI content or whatever else has been written, like having some first-person experience, bringing some primary source material to the table, like that, I think is really going to help stand out, even if it doesn’t gain immediate traction, you know, if you can chip away at it over time, I think that’ll be a big help. And the other model that we saw do really well recently was, um, travel Mexico solo dot com, Shelley Marmor was the founder, she was on the podcast last summer doing like 50 grand a month, mostly from affiliate relationships, and it was, you know, targeting, you know, Mexico specific, like sometimes city specific, uh, you know, what are the best activities in Cozumel or something. And she’s like, even when you’re just starting out, going even deeper, what are the best activities in Cozumel with kids when it rains, um, you know, to, to do after dark? You know, and just like going even one step further, uh, down that target, he’s like, even if, you know, maybe only 50 people search for this a month, but if you’re selling some, you know, uh, tour group or something that you’re an affiliate for, it’s really high intent traffic that is likely going to buy the thing that you’re promoting.
Amanda: So from what you’ve seen making money off of blogs, that’s coming mostly through affiliate links and through advertising or, you know, what do you think is like the easiest way for maybe new people who are going to be exploring the blog writing space?
Nick: Yeah, affiliates would be, you know, tier one because there’s no traffic requirements or thresholds. You know, tier two would be once you have enough, um, traffic or page views to get into an ad network like a Mediavine. Like that would be, you know, the second tier. And then the third tier is, you know, your own products and services where you can really, um, like Liz’s example of selling the $9 email marketing membership, or, you know, if you can solve that pain or problem for a your readers, you know, obviously you have great margins on selling your own stuff.
Amanda: Yeah, and I was also going to ask, so when we’re talking websites and blogs, are we are we putting like social media pages anywhere in there? Because, um, you know, obviously, I feel like you could say that everything has too many people. There’s too many blogs, there’s too many social media pages, but it’s not impossible, um, because we’re all unique individuals and we all uniquely share information, right? So, um, would you put social media pages in with that category or would you consider that a completely separate one?
Nick: It would definitely be a piece of the pie. Like if you’re going to go the social media content creator/influencer route, I do, I think it still makes a lot of sense to have your own home-based website that you own and control. But going out, you know, it’s trying to, it’s, it’s marketing 101, it’s trying to find well, where am I, how can I connect with my people in their natural habitat? Like where are they already congregating and hanging out? And so I’ve got to go to YouTube or I got to go to Pinterest or I got to go to Tik Tok to go out and hopefully create something that resonates with the goal of driving them back to the website, to the email list, to, to, you know, engage deeper with me and to hopefully do business with me.
Mindy: On that same vein, what is your opinion of platforms like Substack over, uh, maybe running your own site?
Nick: Yeah, so Substack, um, SendFox, Beehiiv, like these, you know, plug and play newsletter type platforms that make it really easy to get started. If that’s what gets you off the sideline, that’s fantastic, right? I still think that you ought to have your own website and domain ultimately, but if, if getting over those technical hurdles is a really, is really challenging for you, then by all means, like, you know, get into the practice of creating the content. And you can do it, you can start it for free, right? So it’s like, you know, put in the reps, see if it’s something that you enjoy doing, and then, you know, invest in having the site built. And I think, you know, you’ll, you’ll end up putting on your marketing hat and figuring out, well, okay, how am I going to go out and find a readers or subscribers to this newsletter? How am I going to systemize the production of this such that it feels, that it feels good, that it doesn’t take up all my time and, you know, it still is, you know, rewarding and fulfilling to do. And then as that grows, hopefully, you start to build a little bit more of a, a business and a foundation around it.
Mindy: I like that, uh, you said get in the habit of creating the content and, uh, again, earlier you said the same thing, consistently posting. And that’s really what’s going to do it for you is being consistent and being, uh, liking what you do. I mean, when you don’t like what you have done, it shows. It shines way through. And when it feels like an obligation to write this blog post or send out this newsletter, it’s not fun. It’s not informative. It’s, it’s kind of sometimes got an edge to it like, ugh, filled with resentment. So, absolutely. I, I love that. Not everybody’s going to love having a blog. I’ve had a blog for, uh, 11 years. I got started when you did, Nick, in 2013, and it’s, you know, sometimes it’s a chore and sometimes it’s a delight and you can always tell which which, uh, blog episodes were a chore.
Nick: But it comes through on the podcast too. Like you wouldn’t be doing this for 500 episodes if you didn’t enjoy doing it. Like I think there’s, there’s something to that where you’re to compete today, you almost have to be obsessed. And, you know, I’m obsessed with, you know, the idea of talking about side hustles, like it just never gets old. You know, that was a legit worry, like I got to run out of people to talk to if I commit to doing this every Thursday. It’s like, no, you know, the number of inbound, you know, far exceeds the, you know, capacity to create more episodes. And it’s just, it’s to be able to compete in that space, the days of, you know, trying to throw up an anonymous website and just, you know, hire outsourced writers, like I think that has probably sailed, like that is going the way of, you know, chat chat GPT AI content. But if you can bring some, you know, personal experience and obsession, I’ll give you the example of like, um, you know, travel rewards, like points and miles, like I like that stuff. I, you know, if somebody wants to give me a free flight, you know, just for using a credit card, I’ll, I’ll take that all day long, but I’m never going to compete with the points guy, you know, with these other entities that live and breathe it all day long, and they’re flying on the $25,000, you know, private suite tickets to Dubai and stuff. Like, it sounds cool, but like, I’m not going to go through the trouble of like figuring out how to optimize that stuff. So I’ll stay in my lane and figure out where my curiosity and obsession lead.
Mindy: Yeah, I like the O word, obsession. It, you, you do have to be very invested in the content that you’re putting out. Otherwise, it is going to show through that you’re not invested, and you’re not going to be able to compete with the other people in your space who are more obsessed, more invested, more excited about it.
Nick: And the the tricky caveat there, I I want to pause on that because it’s like, well, I don’t, you know, what am what am I passionate about? What am I obsessed with? It’s like, a lot of times you find it comes from getting started and doing the work and putting in those reps. Like I had no passion for podcasting in 2013. I had no idea what I was doing, right? But it’s like you, you kind of by doing it, you become obsessed. Like what’s the, you know, be so good they can’t ignore you. You know, the the same argument and Dan Pink, I think makes the same argument. Like, no, no, no. You know, on the path to mastery, there’s something about like the pursuit, the progress, the you know, you may not be there yet, but you you you can see yourself getting better every week. I think there’s something to that. Um, you know, Harry Duran, you remember crossed path with him at a podcast movement or something? He’s like bright yellow shirt, podcast junkies.
Mindy: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nick: Yeah, so Harry starts this show, uh, called the vertical farming podcast. Harry is not a farmer. Harry, you know, who’s worked in corporate finance or you know, corporate marketing, like he has no business doing this, but he, you know, read about it in a book. He’s like, I am curious about this. I’ve, you know, given the way of the world, I want to learn more about vertical farming. So, given his background in podcasting, starts the vertical farming podcast and starts interviewing founders and CEOs and other high-level people in the vertical farming world and he had made, I talked to him like three years into this little side project of his, he made an average of $700 per episode despite having a really, really niche small audience because it was so niche, like, hey, if you want to talk to vertical farming people, like where else are you got to go? This is the place. And it was just fascinating. Like, look, I don’t have the authority expertise in this space, but it’s going to rub off over time, but just by virtue of having these recorded calls with other people who do, I thought that was so, so cool.
Amanda: No, I, I love it. I think that you have to become so obsessed with it that you’re okay with not making any money at first, and you’ll realize very quickly if it’s something that you do have an obsession over, I think, because it can take a little while to build that up, right?
We’re going on a quick break. When we’re back, Nick Loper will reveal to us the common factors that lead to side hustle success stories.
Scott: When spring hits, some people suddenly just want to declutter the garage, clean out the closets and get everything all organized. Whether or not that hits you, Monarch will do your financial spring cleaning for you. One dashboard gets your entire financial life organized. No more clutter, no more mess, no more scattered logins, just accounts, investments, property, and more all in one place. One of my favorite parts is the Sankey diagram. Every month I open it up and literally watch the flow of money. It shows exactly where every dollar is going from income to all of my spending categories. It makes it so much easier to spot what’s working and what needs tweaking. Get your first year of Monarch for half off, just $50 with the promo code POCKETS. Use the code POCKETS at monarch.com to get your first year half off at just 50 bucks. That’s 50% off your first year at monarch.com with the code P O C K E T S.
Scott: You guys heard our recent episode with David Jackson and I’ll be honest, even as someone who lives and breathes this stuff, having a pro like David pressure test my plan was a game changer. Domain Money is different because they don’t try to take over your accounts. They provide a flat fee service where a dedicated CFP analyzes your entire financial life with no stone left unturned. No hidden fees, no commissions, just clear, actionable strategy. Go to biggerpocketsmoney.com/cfp and book a free strategy session to see how they can help you reach FIRE faster. This is a promotion for Domain Money, a registered investment advisor with the SEC. BiggerPockets Money may receive compensation if you choose to work with Domain Money as a client. I, Scott Trench, am a current client of Domain Money and receive non-cash compensation related to this promotional activity. This is not personalized investment advice. For the full disclosures, visit biggerpocketsmoney.com/cfp.
Scott: If you’ve been putting off life insurance, I get it. The old process was miserable. Phone calls with an agent, a nurse coming to your house for a blood draw, then waiting weeks to find out what you’d pay for. That friction is exactly why so many people who should have coverage don’t. Here’s what I believe. Most BP Money listeners need term life. And the right move is to build a ladder. A few term policies of different lengths stacked together, so your coverage steps down as your mortgage shrinks and your kids get closer to being financially independent or you get closer to hitting your financial independence number. The thing that makes that practical now is Ethos, a platform that helps you find life insurance all 100% online. Same-day coverage, no medical exam, you just answer a few health questions online. Up to $3 million in coverage, some policies as low as $30 a month. So building a two or three-layer ladder that used to take a month of appointments is something you can knock out before your coffee gets cold. Get your free quote at ethos.com/bpmoney, that is e t h o s.com/bpmoney. Application times may vary and rates may vary.
Scott: When I was CEO of BiggerPockets, Upwork was the number one place that we went to hire freelancers to power our business. One of the biggest growth hacks is realizing that you don’t have to do it all yourself. Upwork made it easy to bring in the right freelancer when we needed them, so that we could stay focused on what we do best. Upwork is a one-stop platform to find, hire, and pay expert freelancers across web and software development, data and analytics, marketing, business operations and more. It’s free to sign up and posting a job is easy. Thousands of growing businesses already trust Upwork to hire flexible, high-quality freelance talent for everything from one-off projects to ongoing support. Visit upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That’s upwork.com to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That’s u p w o r k.com. upwork.com.
Scott: When you’re ready to start your business, Northwest Registered Agent helps you do more than just file paperwork. You get all the tools to build a real business identity from day one. A business address, website, phone number, operating agreement, free guides and more at no extra cost. Northwest Registered Agent has been helping small business owners and entrepreneurs launch and grow businesses for nearly 30 years. They are the largest registered agent and LLC service in the US with over 1500 corporate guides. These are real people who know your local laws and can help you and your business every step of the way. With Northwest, your business is set up to stand on its own from day one. That means your home address, personal email, and phone number stay private. Don’t pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for what you can get from Northwest for free. Visit northwestregisteredagent.com/moneyfree and start using free resources to build something amazing. Get more with Northwest Registered Agent at northwestregisteredagent.com/moneyfree.
Welcome back to the show.
Amanda: So now I want to ask you, can you tell us a little bit more about some of your favorite, you know, some of your favorites in the non-digital asset arena?
Nick: So one of the really interesting ones that came up in the last year was Lenny Tim in LA, he’s renting out mobility scooters. I want to say the website is LA mobility scooter rentals dot com, like very, very specific. So somebody’s searching that thing, he’s likely to show up. And what was even more interesting was he put the website up like years before ever buying his first uh scooter. And you know, it started to, you know, rank it in Google and you know, start to get a few more inquiries and he’d always say, oh, sorry, we’re booked up for those dates or, you know, sorry, we don’t have inventory available or something. Until he started to get this critical mass like, okay, this is legit. Like there’s enough people who like really want this thing. So he goes and finds a scooter for, you know, 500 bucks used on Facebook Marketplace, and said, okay, you know, we have availability for these dates, delivers it to the hotel, you know, I forget what he’s starting, you know, 50 bucks a day, 70 bucks a day or something for travelers coming in from out of town, didn’t want to pack this thing on the airplane, big bulky item, makes a lot of sense. Hey, we’ll deliver it to your hotel. And it’s like, shoot, after 10 days of renting this thing out, like I’ve broken even on my initial upfront investment, and the rest is gravy. And you had a fleet of like five or seven of these things at this point. I thought that was really, really interesting. We had another guy doing, um, you know, similar with portable hot tubs of all things. Like started pre-COVID, really blew up during the pandemic when everybody’s trapped at home looking for an activity for the kids, like, sure, you want to bring a hot tub over and like set that up in the back in the backyard. Fantastic. Um, but it’s the same thing, like, you know, buy the thing once and, you know, you can rent it out. I don’t know, he’s rental rate was, you know, 20 or 300 bucks a week and you just after a certain point, it’s all, it’s all gravy. It’s all paid for and it’s all in the, in the profit. The those types of examples were really, really interesting and inspiring and it’s like, you know, the photo booth business, you know, the party rental business, the inflatable rental business, like it’s all kind of under that same umbrella of these non-traditional assets where I was kind of trained to think, well, a rental business is you buy a three bedroom, two-bath house in a nice neighborhood and you you’re happy to get 1% of the purchase price for your your rent and that’s that’s a rental business. Like, no, no, no, there’s these other assets that have a much quicker break-even window.
Amanda: Yeah, and I love that. And you’re also at that point, you’re making sure that there’s actual interest in the thing, right? Like some demand in your area. So I think that’s so genius before he even invested any money into it, uh, made sure that that existed. I think that’s awesome. So I was going to say, are there any downsides to this that, uh, the listener should watch out for when it comes to renting out equipment and things like this?
Nick: Well, it’s still a physical product business. So and especially if it’s a big bulky item, you got to figure out the delivery logistics of, you know, how am I going to fit this in my car? How am I going to get this to the customer? And so it’s, you know, it’s a leveraged, like it’s not direct hours for dollars, but there’s still a time component to, you know, doing the deliveries and doing the pickups and stuff like that. So you got to make sure you have a flexible schedule or build some guardrails around that, you know, what time you’re going to be able to to do that. And then you’re going to want to have your product liability insurance. Like if somebody falls off this scooter or breaks, like do you have a replacement? Like how’s that going to work? Just to protect yourself from that stuff.
Mindy: Let’s talk about vending machines. Vending machines seem to be really, really hot like a few years ago. Uh, and some people did really, really well. In fact, on episode 458 of the BiggerPockets Money Podcast, we spoke with Ryan and really dove deep into vending machines and how he was making money. Are you still seeing success with vending machines? Uh, because I know some people did really well and some people didn’t.
Nick: Vending machines are, I mean, I think they’re still having a moment. I don’t know if that ship has sailed. It’s a really interesting space because it’s such a simple, you know, everybody can understand this business, you know, buy low, sell high, you know, lather, rinse, repeat. I get my, uh, drinks and candy bars at Costco or wherever and you know, resell them at a 2, 3x markup here, like, okay, on a per unit basis, the margins look great, but like real estate, it comes down to location, location, location. We had a guest on recently who had, I think 10 or 15 different vending machines, and you know, his criteria was, look, I’m looking for a residential building with at least 100 units or I’m looking for a workplace with at least 100 employees are coming through on a daily basis just because if you don’t have that foot traffic, then you’re kind of, uh, you know, you’re sitting making payments on this machine. He recommended like, you know, getting a new machine and just financing it and paying for it with the proceeds from the sales. Um, but if it’s not having that foot traffic or that sales volume, it’s like, ah, I got I got to go find another place. But in that sense, it’s, it’s low risk. It’s like, well, if this location sucks, like, you know, I can pack it up and try something else. You know, you’re not um, you’re not necessarily married to that location.
Amanda: And I feel like now, at least I’ve seen it, it’s not just like butterfingers in a vending machine. There’s like AirPods, Kylie cosmetics, there’s some like really nice stuff that I’ve been seeing in vending machines. And I’ve always been so curious like what type of ROI these people are getting? Because to your point, it’s all about location. I mean, there’s nothing worse than like realizing you left your AirPods at home and being like, oh, well, you know, I’ll pay a premium because I’m not about to go sit on this five-hour flight with no headphones. Um, so, so I think that’s like a really interesting evolution of the vending machine too.
Nick: Yeah, I want to put one in at our community pool and so like swim diapers and goggles and, you know, spin drifts for all the moms and dads, it’s just like, it just makes, I don’t know, I the pool has been there for 30 years. I don’t know why they haven’t done this yet. So like I got to talk to the the HOA and figure out what’s going on here.
Amanda: Go do it. Let us know how that works out. That sounds genius. And then I have another question. So how can somebody prepare before getting started in the vending machine business? Like, how do you find the good location? How do you know what types of things to put in there? Is there some type of a magic checklist?
Nick: I don’t know if there is a magic checklist, but what I would recommend, you know, similar to Lenny in the, you know, in the scooter rental business, like how do I validate the demand? In this case, you can probably get as far as having a signed contract with the location before you’ve bought any inventory, before you’ve even gone out and bought the machine. So it’s like, you know, how do you, how do you find the the property manager or the general manager at a location that appears to check this, you know, criteria box and say, okay, what’s it gonna take to get into this building? And what was interesting, I asked Mike Hoffman, was the the guy that we did the vending machine episode with, and you probably, you know, had the same advice on your vending machine episode, was, you know, if this if this building has been around for 20 years, like have they, has literally no one like brought this up to them, like why don’t we have a vending machine? And he’s like, well, what happens more often is, you know, the machine that it is there is outdated, it’s broken down, you know, the company that’s servicing it is, you know, isn’t really keeping up, and so it’s out of stock. Like it’s not been a great experience for them. So, in more often you’re gonna be replacing that type of scenario than coming in completely clean unless it’s a newer build. And he what was really interesting, he’s like, don’t lead with the V word. Don’t lead with vending, lead with amenities. We’d like to provide, I’d like to talk to you about providing modern amenities for your residents. It’s like, oh, that’s interesting because he was also getting into these like unstaffed, um, mini market type of things where you just kind of scan your your product on the way out. It’s got like security cameras to make sure you’re not shoplifting and stuff. That was really, um, really kind of interesting because I’ve seen those at the airport where it’s like, I guess this is just on the honor system and there’s, you know, enough, enough, you know, social, uh, stigma to like nobody’s going to just walk away with this stuff. So, um, a different, slightly different take on it.
Mindy: Nick, I’m curious about your experience doing this for so long. Are there any factors that are common between people who are exceptionally successful in their side hustles?
Nick: I mean, the biggest thing is just getting off the sidelines and and um, you know, trying everybody’s like, what’s the perfect side hustle? You know, the best one that you can do is the one that you take action on. And you know, a couple things that have stood out, you know, one is that, you know, bias toward action and even if the the business model that you end up on isn’t necessarily the one that you start, it’s like, I don’t know, I had, I had a phrase for it, but I lost it. And the, you know, the second thing is just figuring it out as you go. I, I, like, how to, like you, you don’t need to know steps two through 10, but like just, just step one enough to get started. And more guests have started with a service business than anything else. So we’re kind of talking about, you know, what are these time-leveraged business models? How do I generate passive income? More guests start with, you know, an hours for dollar, like a freelancing business, a consulting business, an agency business, then, and not necessarily about them doing the work. Like if I can, I can maybe I can play matchmaker and go, you know, find somebody to deliver this skill, um, and keep the clients happy on that front. But more people start with that model then eventually, you know, graduate or, you know, scale into something else. So I thought that was interesting too, rather than, you know, chasing some elusive passive income where, I don’t know, there’s in, in most passive income businesses, you’re working for less than minimum wage for a, for a while before it scales up to the point where you it’s, it’s actually paying off.
Mindy: Yeah, that is a really an interesting point that you make, Nick. A lot of this is not going to be get rich quick. You want to start something, I love this, the best side hustle is the one that you take action on. Absolutely. Uh, start with something that you’re going to take action on. If you have this idea and you’re like, ooh, I don’t know if I’m actually going to do that, then don’t try it. Go for something that you’re like, wow, that sounds really, really interesting. Um, I’d like to learn more about that. Like the vertical farming thing. I’d like to learn more about that. I guess you don’t have to be a subject matter expert in order to produce content on the subject. You just find subject matter experts and have them share. Uh, I love that idea.
Amanda: Yeah. And I think also especially, you know, if people are picking up this as their side hustle, I’m assuming they’re also working a full-time job. So it should be something that you’re not miserable at. It should be something that you don’t totally hate, right? Something that brings a little bit of joy to your life as well as some extra dollars in your pocket. So I think finding something that, you know, at least is interesting to you that you could do every single day, um, I think is a really, really great place to start too. So I’ve loved all of this advice.
Nick: Yeah, the last thing that you need is, is a second job that you come to dread doing. Like it’s got to be, it’s got to be interesting. It’s got to spark some curiosity and excitement.
Mindy: I love that. Well, Nick, we have said side hustle nation a ton on this episode, but where can people find out more about you?
Nick: Well, thanks so much for, for having me back. It’s always a, a blast to geek out on this stuff. Side hustle nation dot com, like Mindy said, that’s the home base. Would love to have you tune into the side hustle show. We’re over 600 episodes, case studies on, you know, been there, done that, how I built this, um, side hustle from the ground up in a lot of cases. If you’re not sure where to start on that archive, um, you can go to hustle dot show and just answer a few short multiple choice questions and then the little engine will build you a personalized playlist of the episodes I think will be most impactful for you based on those answers. So that’s hustle dot show.
Mindy: Nick, thank you so much for your time today. It’s always a delight to talk to you, and we will talk to you again soon.
Nick: All right. Cheers. Thanks.
Mindy: Okay, Amanda, that was Nick Loper, and that was super fun. And as Nick was talking, I was thinking to myself, doesn’t Amanda have a side hustle?
Amanda: You know, Mindy, I do have a side hustle. I have a full-time job and a side hustle, and I am one of those people who have just been side hustling my whole life, I would say. Um, and you know, mine started out as really just a passion project, which I love how he talked about that. Find something that you’re obsessed with, something that you’re really passionate about. And that’s exactly how mine started. I started just by wanting to share information on something that I thought was really important and something that was, you know, really close to my heart, financial literacy. Um, I think it’s really important for everybody to become financially literate because nobody cares as much about your money as you do. So it started off as that, and then I found that a whole bunch of people out there were really feeling a little lost when it came to money, and so it kind of snowballed into this much larger side hustle, which is, I like to say now it is my second full-time job. So yeah, I’ve just been doing side hustles though my whole life.
Mindy: You know, I have, I was thinking back while you were sharing that, I’m like, when was the last time I didn’t have a second job? I was a stay-at-home mom with two girls and kids are not a job, but they took up every minute of my time so I didn’t have any jobs, but other than that, I think I have always had more than one job. Uh, waitressing and then also, uh, I was a graphic designer. Actually, I was a graphic designer and I waitressed on the side. Um, waitressing is actually a really prevalent part of my side hustling because it’s so easy to do. And it’s, you know, is it a side hustle? Is it a second job? Uh, I’m not sure the exact definition of that, but I know that I have always been doing something else on the side outside of my original job. And it’s just, you know, it’s, I think it comes back to the way I grew up. I didn’t have a lot of money and I wanted to. So what do you do when you don’t have a lot of money? You work, and that’s how you get money.
Amanda: You know, another really cool thing I think, um, about side hustles is that it allows you to explore things that you might not explore in your full-time job. So, how you just mentioned waitressing was like a super fun job for you. I mean, you learn so many skill sets from like selling, customer service, dealing with difficult people, right? Um, I actually drove for Lyft at one point. Um, I opened a gym in the morning before work. Like I’m just like you, Mindy, where I’ve never only had one job, and I think that you learn so many different things about what you like doing and what you don’t like doing, plus networking with lots of people. So I think it’s, I think side hustles can be really, really cool to not just get some extra money in your pocket, but to learn a little bit more about yourself and when done right, really help catapult your wealth and catapult you into that next phase of your life so that you don’t have to do a side hustle forever.
Mindy: Yeah, I love that. All right, Amanda, should we get out of here?
Amanda: Yeah, let’s do it.
Mindy: That wraps up this episode of the BiggerPockets Money podcast. I am Mindy Jensen, and of course, she is Amanda Wolf from the She Wolf of Wall Street. We’re saying bye bye, butterfly.
Scott: If you enjoyed today’s episode, please give us a five-star review on Spotify or Apple. And if you’re looking for even more money content, feel free to visit our YouTube channel at youtube.com/biggerpocketsmoney.
BiggerPockets Money was created by Mindy Jensen and Scott Trench, produced by Kailyn Bennett, editing by Exodus Media, copywriting by Nate Weintraub. Lastly, a big thank you to the BiggerPockets team for making this show possible.
