Host: Today’s Finance Friday guest is hoping to retire by the age of 50, but doesn’t have a clear understanding of the investing order of operations and what is best. Today, we are going to break down the options that Austin has to make his FI dreams a reality. Today’s guest is young, he’s 25 years old. So it’s a great episode for you if you are young and on your journey to financial independence. But it’s also a great episode for you to introduce the concept of financial independence to someone younger in your life.
Host: Hello, hello, hello and welcome to the BiggerPockets Money Podcast. My name is Mindy Jensen, and with me as always is my followed his own FI dream co-host, Scott Trench.
Guest: Thanks Mindy, great to be here with you and looking forward to helping Austin dominate life, money, and the American dream. BiggerPockets has a goal of creating 1 million millionaires. You are in the right place if you want to get your financial house in order because we truly believe financial freedom is attainable for everyone, no matter when or where you’re starting. But it is especially attainable, and let’s acknowledge it off the bat here, for an individual like Austin, starting at a 25 with a solid six-figure net worth and a solid six-figure income. World is this guy’s oyster. Let’s help him get after it as fast as humanly possible, and know that he’s got advantages that other people don’t, um being a a single man in his in his mid-20s with all these options. But let’s let’s see how to maximize an advantageous set of circumstances and see how far he can get.
Host: Yes, Austin, thank you for joining us today. We’re so excited to talk to you.
Guest: Thank you so much for having me.
Host: Austin, let’s look at your money history moving up to today. Where does your journey with money begin?
Guest: Well really when my journey of money began starting in college, went to the local school, my hometown, got an in-state tuition discount, received a large amount of scholarships, um, that the majority of my expenses were covered, you know, with, uh, room, board, textbooks, food, everything like that. So was able to come out of college debt-free, uh, gave me an extreme advantage today, you know, with that head start. Studied finance and data analytics in college, but really what got me started was I did multiple internships at local wealth management firms, worked at a local trust, and just got me and really just interested in saving, investing, and overall, my, uh, interest in personal finance started.
Host: So are you working in finance now?
Guest: No, no. I’m actually, so while I did do that for a few years, um, I just took kind of a leap there. I’m actually currently in software sales. Uh, I work for a publicly traded tech company that I’ve been with for about two and a half years now, uh, located here in Austin, Texas.
Host: Okay. And what is your retirement goal?
Guest: I would say it’s more financial independence. Um, I would love to, you know, reach financial Independence at 50 years old, um, have more passive income in my current income replace my W2, but really have the option to retire at 50, um, with that passive income.
Host: Well, you’re starting at age 25. So unless I peek in to your numbers in a minute and find like some just massive amounts of debt or like gross overspending, I think your 25 year timeline is probably going to be able to be compressed. Uh, do you like your job?
Guest: Yeah, yeah, it’s great. Really enjoy the day-to-day, love the people I work with, really rewarding, uh, process overall.
Host: As you know, I don’t, I I still have a job. I’m financially independent. Well, you might not know, but I’ve said it multiple times on the show. I am financially independent and yet I still continue to work. So once you hit financial independence, you don’t have to quit. It just opens up so many more options because all of a sudden you get a new boss and you’re like, “Wow, we get along like oil and water. I’m out!” and you don’t have to worry about, “Oh, I’ve got to find a new job,” or “I have to, you know, slog along with this horrible boss now,” because you have set yourself up for, for this financial freedom. You can go part-time if you still like it. You can go be a gi- you can go do a job that doesn’t give you like any living wages. Um, and you’re not dependent on that because you’ve set yourself up. So I’m going to go out on a limb having not peaked at these numbers yet and say, I believe you can do it in 25 years. Let’s go see where you’re starting. And do you have a FI number, a specific FI number that you’re thinking about?
Guest: I would say it’s it’s more of an estimation, more than anything. Like right now, my expenses are, you know, pretty low. So, you know, when you think things coming up, you know, with wanting to start a family down the road, things like that, wanted to travel, um, pretty much about 5 million, I would say, shooting high for sure, but that’s where I’d say with like a pretty more than comfortable lifestyle.
Host: Okay, so that’s your end number. I would like to encourage you over the next few years to think about your, I like your bare bones number. Your I can, I no longer have to work. So if something happens at work, I can casually look for a new job or, you know, because 5 million is a lot, but also that affords you a lot. And you’re 25, you have a 25 year timeline. I think you can get to 5 million in 25 years depending on how you’re investing. So that’s a question we’re going to come up with in a few minutes. But right now, I want to look at your numbers. Are you ready?
Guest: Perfect.
Host: Okay. I see a total net worth of $142,000, which is awesome at age 25. Let me tell you, 25-year-old Mindy did not have this same net worth. Not even close. I do see a large amount in cash. What are you doing with this cash?
Guest: So it was a few things. I think when I first got out of college, the first thing, you know, I I had an emergency fund already set up. Second thing was, I just felt it was important just to set up a timeline for the next few years. I was already thinking of house hacking. Knew I was moving to Austin, Texas. Was just saving up for a house hack and then just started saving more and more, really. Um, didn’t, uh, was just, you know, going into my retirement accounts versus saving up for the next thing. Um, until this year I pretty much stopped saving cash right there. It’s just for down the road. but originally it was a house hack and eventually a, um, a house down primary down for when I’m around 29 to 31 depending on where I’m at.
Guest: And what you did Mindy, what I love, what he did with this, is he stock piled a bunch of cash and then he left what I presume was a higher guaranteed base salary job in finance to go pursue sales with a much higher ceiling. That is the best possible use of cash at 25 and just, I’m going to give a round of applause. That’s exactly right. Like that’s exactly what I would do in that situation. And the return on that cash sitting in the bank account allowing you to feel comfortable with pursuing sales is going to is is a really high probability bet. Um, and you could lose, but in your situation, like you can you can afford to do that because of that. So I I love that move. That’s that’s what he did with the cash from my view. Is that is that about right in your?
Host: That was exactly right. Um, you know, I was 22 coming out of college, I had, you know, job opportunities to come into finance, good CFA role, that whole route. But then a family friend of mine I talked to, just more a lifestyle mentor, um, recommended joining a tech company first year out, but you’re exactly right. Um, going through that route. I will say they do offer a pretty competitive base salary as well to cover, you know, my basic living expenses, but that was really it. just like kind of betting on myself.
Guest: Was it a reduction in base or was it actually an increase in base with commissions on top?
Host: Uh, it was a deduction with base than I would have gotten with a finance job for sure. First year of finance, yeah.
Guest: Now a lot of folks do it. Love it. Um, what’s so you just your current income is $145 grand. What is the what is realistic for you? What give me give us a give us some bands on what this could look like over the next couple of years.
Guest: So the 100, it’s definitely volatile for sure. It’s, you know, it’s month to month. But for what I’m seeing, I would say right now it could grow to 175, 200 within two to three years, um, depending on where I’m at, the company stay at. Um, but there plenty of, plenty of realistic to being the 175 or 200, um, pretty realistic in the next two to three years.
Host: Way back on episode 32, we had Mr. and Mrs. Pop on the show, Mr. and Mrs. Planting our Pennies, and Mr. Pop is a in sales, and he said, “If you don’t know what you want to do, go into sales,” because there is no ceiling on how much you can make. It’s just what you’re doing, and anybody can do sales. And I I don’t know that I would say that anybody could do sales, but if you could do sales, holy cow, you can make so much money. So, yeah, I love that you uh jumped ship to go to the uh sales department. And your base salary covers everything. You’re not counting on bonuses and commissions and things like that to cover your living expenses. Is that what I heard you say?
Guest: Exactly. Honestly, more than covers. When I the so my first year when I came out, um, it was a, I’ll just say it out loud. It was a base salary of 50,000 that was able to minimally cover everything, more than cover everything. So I lived off that if not almost saved more and then every dollar in commission I made my first few years was just getting saved, saved, saved, um in my cash pile.
Host: Okay, so I will allow this cash and let’s continue with your numbers. I see $35,000 in a 401k. I think that’s awesome. Uh, you have 25 of that 35 in a Roth. Yay! A Roth 401k means you have already paid the taxes on that and it’s going to grow tax-free. At your age, I love the Roth option for the tax savings because your income right now isn’t enormous. Although it’s $145,000 at age 25. 25-year-old Mindy was not doing that either, so I I really love that you are thinking ahead in the Roth option. Um, and another, you’ve got Roth IRA of $15,000 and a brokerage account of $10,000. Do you know what I don’t see on here, Scott? Crypto. Yay! I don’t care if you put like a dollar in crypto, but it really makes me cringe when I see people they’re like, and 50% of my net worth is in crypto. Ugh, okay, that’s great for you.
Guest: Used to be 10%, to be fair, for the people.
Host: Yes. Okay, so going over to the income side of Scott said you’re making about $145,000 a year. That’s not too shabby. Nice job.
Guest: Thank you.
Host: Expenses. Let’s look at these expenses, Scott. Did you see this? $1,400 in rent. Holy crap. Do you have roommates? I mean, holy cannoli.
Guest: So I a little bit of background there. So I do not have a roommate currently, for my first two years I did have a roommate, but kind of a copy out there was I I bike to work and I get a $200 stipend in um, kind of like a parking payment to use downtown. I live I work downtown as well. So like for me being close to downtown, found this great deal where I got one month off last year.
Guest: It’s a good time to be a renter in Austin, Texas.
Host: It really is.
Guest: I would have done almost exactly the same thing Austin is doing and probably would have lived a little larger if the market was as much of a renter’s market versus a uh landlord’s market in Austin. Like Denver, 12 years ago, this was not, I would not have been able to get a deal like that.
Host: And exactly. So like where I’m at a one bedroom apartment for 1400 is a pretty dang good deal. And I got one month off, so it came out to like 1240. Plus I get $200 a month in a stipend to pay for my parking, which I don’t use, so I bike to work. So that’s my little caveat for living alone for that deal. So it comes out to around like 1000 give or take. So while I I love you, I do love living around. Um, definitely would have done if I didn’t find this deal.
Host: This is a sweet deal. I love that you’re only paying $1,400 a month in rent, especially at your salary. That’s awesome. I was shocked that it was so low.
Guest: It’s very rare, but I will say what I’ve seen in the market just going around here is like people are offering, you know, one month off, two months off. It’s like they’re they’re struggling to fill apartments for sure.
Host: Yeah, okay. Well, great. If you like your property, if you like the the place that you’re at, that’s a great amount of rent and I would not be so quick to elevate your lifestyle, um, while you have this this very lofty goal. Well, I shouldn’t say very lofty, that sounds snotty. This this goal of $5 million. Um, your numbers are fantastic. I see $3,800 total in spending every month, um, 450 on groceries, 160 on restaurants, 250 on travel and vacation. Like nothing here freaks me out. The only thing I will say is that and I’m sure these numbers are just rounded up, but everything ends in a zero. So I would caution to make sure that all of these numbers are actually accurate and you just rounded them for sake of simplicity, but if you’re spending $3,800 a month, uh, you’re doing great.
Guest: Awesome. Awesome.
Host: Uh, let’s move over to the debts. Wow, you have no debts. Okay, so that’s good. When you have a house, you will probably have a mortgage, which is fine. Um, I see no rental properties. I see no pension opportunity, which is fine, you’ll make your own. And then uh I see some questions, so let’s talk about these questions that you have for Scott and I.
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Host: Welcome back to the show. We are joined by Austin.
Guest: The first question I have is more towards the retirement account focused. Um, with you know, the path of financial independence on my mind, I constantly hear you both talk about the middle class trap. And basically where I’m at where my contribution limit, I’m pretty close to that Roth IRA limit. Um, frankly, based off, you know, the vola- the volatility of my, um, income, I don’t think probably we’ll be able to contribute to Roth IRA this year, it’s going to be very close. Um, but I plan on, you know, maxing out my Roth 401k this year, my health savings account. Um, I plan on doing that for the next few years. I guess you know, when when should I debate on investing less in there? And right now I’m very lucky where I can go outside of my retirement accounts, I can really invest everything and max it out, but that’s what you know, when does it come to a point where maybe I should hold back um, and start I’m, really just investing up my brokerage, um, uh, real estate accounts, stuff like that.
Guest: Yeah, well, well, look, my my bias is and and you know, look, I’m I know I’m the the BiggerPockets real estate guy with all this, but I I haven’t been as, go buy real estate uh the last couple of years for in some situations, but I think in your situation here, it it’s a really good match, um, for what you’re doing in a in a lot of ways. I I’m there’s a little bit of market timing in this which is, I know, um, you know, going to going to rile some people up. But I wanted to show you quickly on this front, this would excite me if I were in your situation, um, starting over right now. Um, and and trying to and and trying to get get going at 25. This is the Austin real estate market in May 2022 when the median home price was $667,000. Today in January 2025, the median home price is $516,000. Median sale price. That’s something right there, right? And and that pain, Austin, Texas, I believe is going to see maximum pain in 2025. I don’t know if we’re at the bottom or that that could go much worse throughout the course of the year, but I would be really excited if I was sitting on 80 grand in cash at 25 years old in a market that is that desperate for competition in rents in there, and knowing I could flow a couple, you know, uh a couple of good options there. I’d be really curious to see if you have your pick of the litter in small multi-family or some interesting single family rentals that come with assumable mortgages and you got all day. You got no rush. You could be super patient, you could take all year um to look at that, but if you could get a 3-4% mortgage on a duplex, triplex, quadplex that’s assumable where someone bought with one of those assumable mortgages up here, and you can defray um, a good chunk of that or or, you know, any any property that’s been bought in the last six, seven years that requires $70-80,000 in cash to take over the debt, you’re going to have people willing to work with you. That assumable stuff has been a pain in the rear for a lot of sellers who don’t like working with it, but you are in a deep, deep, deep buyer’s market in Austin, Texas, which I think is only going to get incrementally better for you as a buyer in the next year. Um, for it. So I’d be really tempted to start there um with a chunk of that and you may or may not need a lot of cash to pull that off. But that would be like the first hunch that I would say is is one of the first, you know, big big moves I’d be really thinking about potentially making in your situation. What’s your reaction to that?
Host: That’s interesting because that I was actually one of my questions as well is about you know about the house hack here, but the assumable mortgage is something I’ve never thought about. Um, honestly, that’s something else interesting. I I don’t think the, you know, classic house hack here right now is I wouldn’t say it’s possible, but I had the idea, you know, I’ve heard about the idea with the adding an ADU, a lot of people turn into what they call a sneaky duplex where they um add a second entrance Airbnb the rest. That was actually one of my questions as well is, that seems like the one of the way you talked about Denver as a market as well, like that’s very similar here in Austin I feel like with the current, um, price of housing, but the assumable mortgage thing is something I’ve never thought about. I definitely will check out.
Guest: You only need one one deal that works and there’s going to be one, I think, within the next year. And and one way to test that out, very simple exercise, um uses all the time, but just go look at what’s for sale and go laugh at the absurdity of the sellers and obviously you’re not going to buy any of those. And then look at what has actually sold in the last 90 days, and you will find a serious difference between the two uh when you do that, I believe, in a market like Austin, Texas. You can do that either by just going on Zillow and checking it out, or you can do it by talking to an agent um in a local market and asking them, show me all the properties here and give me the the for sale and then the so look at those for sale ones and look at the bad first because they’re almost all bad if they’re on the market right now. Um, and then look at what’s sold. big difference. You you there’s a lot of negotiating power. And then you can use products like, um, there’s a tool called assumable loanfinder.com and a couple of other tools out there that you can look for that will have the the mortgages that that will list some of the properties that have assumable rate mortgages um on there. That that product, I think, I’m not sure if it still works in Austin. Um, it’s kind of hit or miss in some markets. Um, in my experience, we have no affiliation with them. Um, but there’s always something coming up that that provides that information. So I’d be, that would be like the first instinct there. And if that works, that’s a home run and you don’t need to rush it. You got a great deal on your rent. You’re probably loving life by getting to work. probably, you know, close to six in downtown. Like, I like chill out for a little bit. But but if that deal comes up, that would be fun.
Guest: Yeah, that’s what’s been on my into and the only thing I think it’s when I actually sent my original email to you was um, with the house act too, is to have a mind is like, I just I just gotta make sure I’m staying here for at least a couple years too. Um, that’s something that’s also been on my mind. That’s been, I I’ve seen a couple opportunities come up maybe last year or two, but I just got to make sure that I’m here for more than a couple of years for the house hack if that makes sense. If that’s the right idea.
Guest: Well, one of the things, I I’ve been and this is really macro and market specific, which could be completely wrong um and appropriate and inappropriate in some in some aspects, but I when I think about a market like Austin, Texas, I think there’s every reason to believe in the long-term demand fundamentals in that market. And every bit of reason to be super bearish for the last three years and I’ve been picking on Austin as my worst market to invest in in the country for the last two or three years, but that that all changes at some point, right? At some point that slows down and if you look if if you, I would also give you some homework of look up when the supply of single family units and multi-family units is going to hit in Austin, Texas. This is a simple Google search that you can do. I believe that Austin, Texas saw about 10% increase in multi-family units hitting the market last year, which is absurd. No no metro the size of Austin, Texas will ever grow at 10%. No matter how good you like you want to talk about how good business-friendly or inbound migration patterns are, nobody grows 10%. That’s why you’re getting great deals as a renter right now and that should scare you as a landlord. It will take time to for that to settle. But that new construction should be slowing. My guess is it will be slowing in the back half of this year or early 2026. Um, at that point. And so if you can buy a property that has locked in leases for a year, um, for example, you know, that that might be a way to defray some of those risks. You should also do that for single family homes. I don’t know the single family homes very well, um, in there. Uh, but I think I think Austin, you’ll find Austin’s going to have similarly high multi-family supply delivered, especially in the first half of 2025 and that will abate towards the back half of the year and into next year. Um, you should verify all that, but that will give you a little bit more comfort in when when and where to like, should I just do some research for the next six months or should I begin maybe thinking about that a little sooner? Um, uh on that. So that would that would be where I’d where I’d go. Um, and there and I I would be curious in specifically about small multi-family, duplex, triplex and quadplexes. Um, I’m seeing the most significant spread between, you know, in terms of the price to income that I’ve seen in my career, the best spread in Denver, Colorado, which I think is having a lot of similar dynamics to Austin. I I’d imagine they’re very similar right now. So I wonder if you revisit that on the what has actually sold basis, if your tune changes about how, oh, this doesn’t work. Maybe maybe that’s maybe that’s started to shift recently meaningfully in Austin.
Guest: Definitely, yeah, definitely check that out. I frankly, the assumable loan is something I’ve never looked into. Um, but we’ll definitely honestly never even heard, heard a little bit about it, but…
Guest: Sorry, and that that brings us to the last point there of of you were talking about how you might might not be in Austin in a few years. That’s great. The house hack gives you the most flexibility of any option for from an investment from a living situation perspective. If you you are, you have to break your lease and then your landlord’s got to be able to find a new tenant if you want to move right now. If you buy a place, then that’s not a that’s not a house hack, then you’re going to have a that may have a different problem. If you buy a house hack, and I believe as long as you’re intent, this is something we should confirm, please, uh tell us in the YouTube comments, but I believe that if you buy a house hack and then have to get a new job, for example, that would that would void the one part portions of the one-year commitment for the loan. You should never go into it intending to break to do that. You should intend to live in the property for a year, but I believe that that is one of the circumstances that would allow for early exit. and after that first year, you have the most flexibility in life of anybody because you don’t have a lease with yourself. You can leave at any point uh in time uh on there if you’re if you’re a house hacker. So it’s way more flexible than the even the renting setup, even in a renter’s market.
Host: Yes, Scott, you are correct. It is the your intent at the time of purchase. You are intending to live in this as your primary residence and you will rent out the other portions. But if your job comes to you and says, “Hey, we’re going to transfer you,” as long as you’re moving more than 100 miles away, I think, I think it’s 100 miles away, but maybe that’s an FHA loan.
Guest: And also there’s other there’s other routes like if a family member gets sick or whatever. It’s not it’s not like it’s not like you’re just like locked into this place. But like you should intend to you should intend to live in there for a year, right? Anything else is mortgage fraud. But it is not necessarily like a a a a prison for for that for that period of time if there is a truly reasonable reason to move out um that is permitted specifically.
Host: Yeah, case in point, Scott just bought a house. If he were to then go buy a duplex and say he was going to live in there, but actually not have any intention of living in there and getting a mortgage on that, he is committing mortgage fraud. So, just intend to live there if that’s your intent, which it sounds like it is, and then you’re not committing mortgage fraud. Your circumstances can change. They can’t hold you there forever. Um but I love this assumable mortgage idea because you’re in a great position. You’ve got a big bunch of cash, so you can pay a difference if there is one and it in in Austin there might not be one. Um a difference between what they owe on their mortgage and what you’re going to offer to pay them. Um but you would have to bring that cash to the closing. So in a place like Denver where prices have continued to go up. Uh let’s say I bought a house three years ago at 500,000 and now it’s worth 650. Sure, you can assume my loan. Can you bring 150 to closing? A lot of people can’t. So you would be able to bring the chunk of difference uh to closing and then assume their loan. A couple of things about loan assumptions, you can only assume an FHA or a VA loan. If you assume a VA loan and you’re not a veteran, then if you default, the veteran themselves loses their entitlement. Uh, I think forever. The the portion that you default on, I think is is lost to them forever. So I wouldn’t focus on VA loans, but I wouldn’t be opposed to them. Um the FHA loan, you assume it and now it’s your loan and you’ve got that sweet 2.5, 3, 4 percent interest rate, which is really awesome. But assuming a loan is not just, “Hey, I lost your loan.” Great. here you go. It’s a process that can take three to six months. The bank does not have any interest in you assuming that loan. They’d like that loan off the books because they could give you a new loan for 7% and you don’t want that. So you’ll need a company to help you with the loan assumption process. I have heard good things about assumptionsolutions.com. I have not used them. I can’t say anything about them. Definitely do your research, but finding a company to help you with this process because it is a big can of worms and it’s going to take a long time. But you’ve got a a lease that you can continue with. Um, if you’re in the process of negotiating your new property and just waiting for the assumption to take place, uh ask your landlord if you can go month to month at the end of your lease, even if they raise your rent a lot, you’re not locked into a big long-term lease and then have to cancel that because canceling a lease is is, I’ve heard two months is one of the most common amounts of rent that you were paying as a lease break fee. So, I really like that idea of an assumable loan for you because you’re in such a position of power and the market that you’re buying into. Um but like Scott said, having a house hack is absolutely the most powerful position you can be in when it comes time to be transferred some place else.
Guest: No, that’s all extremely helpful. Thank you.
Host: My dear listeners, I am so excited to announce that we now have a BiggerPockets Money newsletter. If you want to subscribe, go to biggerpockets.com/moneynewsletter. All right, we’ll be right back after this.
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Host: Thanks for sticking with us. Back to Austin from Austin.
Host: Now I want to go back to that Roth IRA, traditional Roth 401k thing. So if you are single, you are, and make up to $146,000, you can contribute to your Roth IRA. Between 146 and 161, you can contribute partially to your Roth IRA, and then over 161, you’re unable to contribute. But what if you make 100 and let’s say 150 this year? Oh, that’s 4,000 over. Why don’t you take 4,000 from your Roth 401k? Instead of contributing to your Roth 401k, contribute to a traditional 401k, that reduces your taxable income, allows you to get into the Roth IRA.
Guest: That’s a good idea, actually. Um, and I’m I’m glad you said that because I’ve done something really interesting this year and I didn’t know how the top of my head. Um, I’m glad you said that because I’ve been using Roth for about the last years. I I received a bonus this month that I actually was going to, we’ll see what you guys say about this, but, uh, front load my 401k for the year, just to get it out get out of the way. Um, if that makes sense. So I actually front loaded at the start of the year. My company will still extend the match after I front loaded as well. I that’s where I thought you’re going to go. I checked on that. Um, but if I did that, um, it’s something I haven’t thought about where I transferred it to the 401k, I’d be able to lower it by however X amount. I have already contributed to it. So I was going to actually going to have a fully loaded, uh, front loaded 401k by the end of this month.
Host: Did you front load that 401k yet?
Guest: I’m halfway.
Host: Okay.
Guest: But that’s a good question there.
Host: And when is your next bonus or commission check?
Guest: Uh I’m luckily I um so that was last year’s bonus for like an over um quota bonus. So I get paid monthly on my commission which is also nice. So I use that basically I use that bonus as to cover my next couple months of expenses and then I don’t see a paycheck um for the next few months. But um,
Host: Oh, for the 401k contributions. Okay, I got you.
Guest: Exactly, exactly. But that’s something that’s interesting. So I’m wondering what the math is there. It’s like, I have a good Vanguard fund in my 401k for my Roth. I was like, I wonder if that the difference there for the Roth conversion, you know what I’m saying? The the Roth 401k conversion and the Roth IRA with the total commitment, but what it makes sense to bring that down, to bring so I’m halfway loaded, bring that down to the 401k so it lowers my tax for income, then go to the Roth IRA, then max out my the rest of my 401k. Does the math there with the taxes add up? is my question actually.
Host: I am going to try to understand this question. Okay, so you want to maybe contribute to your traditional IRA, I’m sorry, your traditional 401k so that you could bring yourself down enough. I would actually wait until closer to the end of the year. Maybe you just crush it this year and you’re going to make 200 and it’s not going to matter. Although then you’ve got some in your pretax and you’re, you know, reducing your taxable income and then some in your Roth that you are contributing to. I still like the Roth for you because of your age. Um, but that is that is a tax question. Scott, what do you think about that? That’s a that’s a touchy one.
Guest: I I think I I’ve already kind of made my my my stands here of I’m on team, max out your HSA, take your 401K match, whether that’s in the Roth if there’s a Roth option, put it in the four Roth 401K, if you can if your company offers you the the match option and either, um, if not, put it in your 401K just take the free money, and pile up the cash, because you’re going to because you’re you’re going to just only increase your options. If it like I would be in your situation, you don’t have to take this advice around there. It’s obviously going to be your call, but I would be like chomping at the bit of like, this is whatever whatever the bottom is, I ain’t buying at the top here in Austin, Texas, and there’s a lot of good reasons to believe in this market over a very long period of time and a lot of good reasons to believe that’s a deep buyer’s market, you’re going to have really a ton of options here. The more cash you have, the more power you’re going to have. especially if especially if you’re going to go this loan route. So I would just be like, I’m going to take that, I’m going to maximize cash, I’m going to make at least one play in real estate. Once that play is made, then towards the back half of the year, I can make the decision to then max out these retirement accounts with any remaining cash, um, that’s that’s coming in or maybe in October you’re like, you know what? Okay, I made my real estate play. I have $20,000 left over. 100% of my paycheck will now go towards maxing out these retirement accounts. You’ll have that option later in the year. So I would just, I would be just stock piling cash right now if you agree with the premise of the house hack, the buyer’s market, and the assumable loan.
Host: I would encourage you to look at, I just looked up large companies headquartered in Austin, Texas, Dell Technology, Amazon, IBM, Oracle, Tesla, Apple. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of these companies, but they pay their employees, you know, a a nice salary. So having something near like where you are and near where they are, I don’t know anything about the Austin market. I don’t know where all these companies are located, but if you could be next to Dell technologies and you’ve got a tenant roommate situation or, you know, multiple tenants that are working at these bigger companies, that’s that’s just really nice to have uh, have that kind of optionality and have a, you want a tenant who has the ability to pay you rent. You don’t want somebody giving you excuses on the first of the month, you want a check on the first of the month. Um oh, I had one last thing to say about Roth. Oh, I know what I wanted to say. Do not contribute to your Roth IRA right now. And if you have, don’t put any more in there in the account right now. I am concerned that you are going to make too much money. What a horrible concern. But if you put too much in, let’s say you make $175,000 after you’ve done all this other monkey business, like that’s a great position to be in. But if you’ve contributed to your Roth, you have to go back in and pull it out. And there’s all this, well, you’re a math guy. There’s all this complicated math that you have to do to figure out exactly how much you put in and how much it grew, and then you have to pull all of that out. Um so, ask me how I know. I did that once and it was kind of uh tedious to do. So you can still max it out on December 30th. You’ll know how much you made for the year and then you can you can uh kind of avoid that.
Guest: Make sure that you can’t commit contribute to the Roth this year. Like you have that, that is within your control and power. Like that that is that has got to be plan A. In the event that things go very poorly, max it out at the end of the year, but I wouldn’t I wouldn’t put anything in at right now and and you can do that in December if you if you find out, oh, I’m going to have a big loss or I’m things are going to go very poorly, not according to plan.
Host: Okay, we might have answered like nine of your questions, but what other questions might you have for us?
Guest: So right now, a decent, not a large part of my sorry, but like a decent amount is I every quarter I receive beste- restricted units. Um, it may be it might be one of the only mistakes I’ve made so far in my journey, but I’ve quite a bit of money still sitting in my company, you know, E-Trade account. Um, I’m sitting when I receive these units, um, I’ve done the ESPP before. I didn’t sell right after. Um, with this income as well. I’m currently sitting at about a $2,000 loss. Um, basically what I’m debating is, do I sell for the $2,000 loss with that I believe my company’s really undervalued there, or do I take this money out, take the unrealized loss and either put that money in my brokerage, have save for the house hack from there. Basically, I’m debating like, do I sell? Do I risk holding this single stock that I that I debated holding in. Does does it so make sense?
Host: Yes. So I would reframe this as like like you your your goal is to get to $5 million in wealth, right? And you’re starting at 150 grand, so that decision is is really immaterial to the overall thing. So I’m going to frame and then I I’ll answer your question specifically in a second here. But what are the leverage points to actually get you there? First, flexibility, right? Something needs to go very right to get you to $5 million, right? That is going to be turbocharging your success in your sales career and or a pivot within the next five to seven years to an entrepreneurial venture like a small business acquisition or something you start and found on your own, Right? I think you know that implicitly coming into the call here. So if you if if if if you agree with that premise, right, then the sales career what what I think you want to do is you want to generate so much cash and keep your expenses so low that you can go through the entire stack of tax advantage investments next year or at the end of this year as we discussed earlier and just max them all out. HSA, 401K, uh Roth 401K if you prefer that and then if things go very poorly and you still have cash, the Roth IRA, traditional sense. You can also think about back doors and stuff. But go down the whole stack and because you spend 3 grand a month, also accumulate $50 or $60,000 a year after tax in your brokerage. So you can go through both in this situation. But the goal will be to accumulate so much more outside of the 401k and tax advantage accounts because you’re rocking it so hard on the income front and spending so little that you’re still building most of your wealth outside of those. Then you got to figure out how you want to deploy that, right? If the sales career goes super well, keep plowing it into real estate would be my it is my bias or or stocks or whatever. but that pick one, concentrate for five to seven years and really kind of go big in that area. Make sure you get a uh, you know, you’re responsible, there’s no leverage that can kill you situation, maybe you can go a little light, but like plow the cash into something you can control that’s scalable. Don’t buy 10 different properties scattered across the country in random geos on a turn key perspective so that you have problems in Cleveland, Ohio distracting you from your $400,000 a year future future job um in here. But if you have six properties in Austin, Texas that are reasonably compacted and one of them’s a pain in the rear and the others are have created a several million dollar net worth problem. I get that problem a lot from BiggerPockets Money listeners by the way where it’s just like, oh I made a million bucks or two million bucks and then they got a couple of pain in the rears they just want to sell because they’re they’re they’re so tired of dealing with with that stuff. Give yourself that type of problem rather than the one that’s halfway across the country or in at least in several different geos. And then if the sales career is killing it and you’re earning so much money that’s just a coasting to FI, that’s great. But if it’s not, then you’re going to want to pivot to entrepreneurship based on what I know the the few minutes of talking to you that I know about you. So make sure you accumulate enough cash, um, you keep emphasizing the cash accumulation uh in order to do that. And I think I think that that will provide tremendous optionality within the next three to five years. It would be a grind, but you’ll have to perform really well, sell hard, keep reading, keep communicating, uh, or or keep really good professional cadence with your clients. But that’s the general framework that I I’d be thinking about, you know, a going here. And I could see a couple a series of house hacks or and plus a couple of rental property investments and or a business all being in the cards there. That would have to go better than what you can put into a spreadsheet. And there’s a very good chance that a business for example, um, uh, could do better than what’s going on in a spreadsheet. So give yourself that option. Um, and you’re as a byproduct of this situation you’ll naturally also be building a stock portfolio that will carry you a big chunk of the way towards 5 million at 50 on its own. So that’s the strategy in a nutshell. Sorry, I I went on a rant there, but hope it’s I see you nodding. Do do that resonate with you and seem right?
Guest: Yeah, yeah, exactly. That’s the thought too is where I’m lucky in a position where go after my Roth, go after my retirement accounts early. You saw my coast fire question there is like I’m front loading them for a reason. Let those build up, everything outside build up for that middle class trap, whether it’s business, real estate portfolio. I know I’ve asked about turnkey properties as well. Um but no, this is all exactly what I wanted to came on here for.
Host: Okay, so I have a question about your your employer. Do you believe in the long-term viability of your company?
Guest: Oh, sorry. We didn’t even I I lost the whole point of the question there. Good good point Mindy. Yes. let’s answer let’s answer his specific question here. I’m so sorry Austin.
Host: Yeah, yeah. No, I do. Yeah. I really do. Um it’s something that we’re get paid out every quarter. Um it’s not like a crazy amount of money, but yeah.
Guest: Keep it in. Yeah. Right? If you if you think if you think they’re going to win, like could you like if you think I if I went back a bunch of years ago and I was like, oh, I’m going to sell all my positions in BiggerPockets. Oh my gosh, I regret it, right? You look, you could still lose it on there, but it doesn’t sound like it’s a huge chunk of your net worth right now, and if you believe in the company, keep it in. You’ll be you’ll be putting so much more cash over the next couple of years into either real estate or stocks that your portfolio will diversify unless this thing does super well, in which case that’s why you’re holding it in.
Host: And this is currently a $2,000 paper loss. You haven’t actually lost the money until you sell it for less than what you bought it for, right?
Guest: Yep.
Host: Okay. Does your company have any unfair advantages? And I’m going to go on a little bit of uh explanation here. Uh, looking at the large companies headquartered in Tesla in Austin that I know about, Tesla has the unfair advantage of having a charging network across the country, which makes travel really, really easy, and it’s very difficult for other companies to come in and compete with them. That’s a huge advantage. Amazon has this whole, we’ve been doing it since 1999 or whenever they started. So, they have a huge network, they’ve got all these local distribution companies. That’s another unfair advantage. Because they have so much money, they can do this and they can kind of squash competition and I’m not saying this as like I’m supporting either of these companies. I am a shareholder in both of these companies. Um but does your company have any unfair advantages? and if you can’t think of anything right now, like that’s a homework assignment because if they’re just, you know, doing like WeWork went out of business because all they did was rent properties and then sublet to other people, well, there’s no moat around that. Anybody could do that. and they went out of business. I think they coincided with COVID but they didn’t have an unfair advantage.
Guest: Definitely not an unfair advantage. I would say we’re not the market dominator in my industry. Um, we’re definitely leading not to go in sales here but leading in AI integration software that. So that’s something I believe in and where actually our stock price um it was it was about 10 times what it used to be. It’s 10 times less what it used to be. so it’s it’s dropped significantly. The covid software tech industry hit hard and I came in at a good time with my vested stock in my head to where we’re actually around like maybe 50, 60, $70 a stock and now we’re much less. And I invested at a good time in my head. That’s where it’s like really been like, okay, maybe I should keep this for the long term. It’s it’s a bet. It’s really just a bet.
Guest: I think you make 10 bets like this over the next three years, right? I I love one every 90 days is my framework, right if you’re thinking about it. This is one of them. The other one a house hack or whatever it is in the next 90 days. You just keep layering those on. One of them is going to one of them is going to some of them are going to flop, one of them is going to take off. and as long as your fundamental core strategy of either real estate or stocks, if you can you might say, I’m not going to avoid that entirely house hacking nonsense entirely and real estate investing and just go straight in stocks on there. But as long as your core strategy is seeing a huge plowing of most of your dollars, taking shots like this could absolutely result in one or two out of 10 paying off over the next three years and you you’re having a nice couple of wins that jump jump jump that formula that I know is probably buried in a spreadsheet somewhere with you with your finance background, um that propel forward to some degree.
Guest: I think it’s a fun bet and you have other things you’re you’re going to be putting your money in other places. I wouldn’t just do that and be like, oh, I’m investing.
Host: Yeah. CNA and run employees. The way I look at it too is like every quarter I get that payment, I would be selling it doing in the future, but it’s just my current stock right now. Um taking that income, that’s what way it’s for savings.
Guest: Yeah. Awesome. I had a similar situation 10, 12 years ago. In fact, many of the aspects of your situation are similar to where I was around 25. Um, and before I was at BiggerPockets, the company I was at offered an employee stock purchase plan and I did not believe in the stock price of that company. And so I just took the 15% discount. We were able to buy shares basically at 15% discount and arbitrage that. Um, if I believed in the company, I would have taken the discount and held on to them for a very long period of time. I think that’s the only difference and I didn’t and and if I I think I was generally right in that particular choice and you were probably you you you should go with your instincts on this particular one. If you were saying I’m going to have 80% of my net worth in the company over the next five years, maybe I’d have a different with a base case plan, I might have a different opinion, but that’s not going to happen unless things go super well.
Host: It’s only maybe four to six percent right now, maybe. quick math. Um and then one thing I brought up is like I’v- stacked up this money for that down payment of that 60, 70, 80,000 of cash for whether it’s a house hack whatever it be, maybe. After I been front loading for the rest of this year, it’s going to happen this month. I’m going to stock pay cash. My plan right now is Austin, it’s besides the assumable loan and the house hack, it’s a high barrier of entry for someone my age. Um, I’ve been looking to a more turn key real estate in the Southeast. It’s something I’ve been referred to. I see you’re shaking your head.
Guest: No, I don’t like I don’t like turn key rentals in your situation. Um and the reason for that is because your earnings potential is so large and your goal is so big. Let’s let’s play this out, right? Let’s say you buy a turnkey rental in Cleveland, Ohio with $50,000 down and $150,000 mortgage. The best you can reasonably hope for is $250 a month in cash flow, right? That would be that would be an excellent situation and now you have a property in a C-class neighborhood in Cleveland, Ohio. You can pick, you can, in replace Cleveland with any of the cities that you are likely looking at here, right? Now, let’s let’s decide how do we get to $20,000 a month an income, uh which is your goal, right? So $20,000 a month divided by 250 is 80 units. You’re going to do it 80 times, okay? That is that is that is kind of a truly absurd statement when I frame it that way, um, in order for that to be a position part of your portfolio. And guess what, in in five to to 10 years, if you are successful in your sales career, it is very reasonable possibility on the upper bound that you’re earning $500,000 a year in income. So now, in order to replace $500,000 or or $45,000 a month in income, you need 180 of those units. you’re gonna build 180 unit portfolio in Cleveland or in insert parallel city uh external to that? I don’t I don’t I don’t think that’s a great a great move. Now, if you’re saying I want to buy 10 paid off rentals in one location because that’s all I want, okay, we have a different different discussion there. but I don’t think that’s your plan. I think you have an aggressive, I want to drive, I to drive ROI to get to my $5 million net worth number in parallel with my and my investment. So I think that’s owned and operated real estate or stock market in your situation on this. So I would steer you away from that turnkey strategy. Unless, again, you said, “Hey, I have a tie to Cleveland or Columbus or whatever whatever the city I’m I’m trying to invest in, I may even raise a family there in the future in a future because that’s home and I’m going to buy 10 paid off properties that are in a tight geo a tight kind of concentrated area where I will have my pick of the litter with property managers who would love to have 10 properties in the same block.” Okay, now you have a different different approach to that, but I I would I would be averse to that strategy in your situation. What do you think Mindy?
Host: Uh, I agree completely. I uh have not dived, dove deep into the Austin market, but I know that Scott has and he doesn’t love it for other people, but you live there. You have the opportunity to A, assume a mortgage, or B, have roommates in your property, or you have the ability to potentially assume a duplex, triplex, quadplex mortgage and I really like the assumable mortgage option for you. I definitely want you to do some research into that because that could be a great way to get a lower price property with a killer uh interest rate that you that’s going to make the difference between making money and not making money. And that assumable thing that Scott is going to send you on, um is going to be a pretty sweet thing for you to look into.
Guest: Yeah, I I you can imagine like let’s say best-case scenario is the market Austin market goes like down for the next three years, you know, a couple percentage points a year. Like that’s the best-case scenario for Austin, for for you, Austin, not the city of Austin, um, very very confusing. But that’s the best, that’s a best-case scenario for you, because if you buy one property, you’ll be like, “Oh no, it went down,” but you buy the second property also with an assumable mortgage potentially the next year and a third one and then like if if if you could pull like if that situation were to transpire, the next 10 to 20 years almost certainly would see a reversion to the mean of 3% appreciation and you’d have a bunch of properties locked in at low interest rates where the people who originally locked in those mortgages actually took all the hit for the last couple of years so that you could get that locked in financing, for example. So I would be, I would be, again, I would be I I I am not in Austin right now, but Austin is one of those markets where I may look at a a syndication or whatever deal in the next year or two because of the situation there is so is one of the most extreme in the country and there’s an opportunity for someone who’s smart and and really kind of gets to know it well, um to make some money in there.
Host: Austin, thank you so much for your time today, and we will talk to you soon.
Guest: Thank you so much. Both of you, Scott.
Host: All right, Scott, that was awesome. And that was awesome. I really love his trajectory and I love that he’s 25 and he’s thinking about this stuff. I could have learned a lot from him if I was in his same boat, uh if he was next to me in my same boat at 25. Whatever, I didn’t do what he did and I still got here. I think he’s going to get here too. What did you think of the show, Scott?
Guest: I I I love Austin from Austin, and his situation and all the right choices he’s made. This guy has every option in the world. He should keep those options open. He should never take, put himself in a position where he’s locked into like an all-in bet that’s outside of his his work unless he chooses one entrepreneurial venture, um in the next couple of years that’s what’s going all in on, but he’s going to be, he has a very high probability of success. Yes, he can lose in any of the paths that we discussed there, but I am super optimistic that Austin has a shot at becoming a millionaire, if not in the next 10 years, within the next seven, maybe even by the time he hits 30 with a little bit of luck. So this is the type of position that you can’t really model out and you shouldn’t lock yourself into a long-term financial model. You should stay flexible, chase that income and and go after it and by the time he’s again, hitting his 30s, he’s going to have a lot of options um and a lot of really good choices that he can make in his wife.
Host: Yeah, I love that he’s in sales because literally the sky is the limit on your income there. You are limited by your own creativity and your own drive. So he has the drive. I think he is going to hit it and hit it hard and hit it early, and I’m super excited for him. I want to check back in with him in like six months or a year. See where he’s at then.
Guest: Absolutely. I’m also very curious, um I’ve been really really dunking on Austin as the worst place to invest in America for the last several years. And at some point you got to start changing your tune and say, well, if it’s gone this bad for this long, is it time to start buying? I think it’s about time to start buying and I would be really interested if I was in that in in uh in that 25-year-old house hacking, serial house hacking uh range there. Um but I would love to see what you guys think. Tell me about it in the comments and let me know if you think I’m crazy or if I’m spot on and uh you agree that it’s it’s buy time in Austin, especially with that assumable rate mortgage strategy.
Host: I’m really surprised that the Austin market is so down because Austin has tradi- traditionally been a really great market. And with all of those giant companies in the area, they’re they’re going to be employing people who may or may not want to own properties. It just it seems like Scott, I hope you’re your uh starting to be wrong. Yes, well, well, well, let me be clear. I I I get to note I get I told you so on the market went down in the last two years and I think it the worst I think it was the worst place to invest and now it could be the best place or one of the best places to invest is what I’m saying. So, I hope hopefully I’m I’m right for Austin’s sake uh both the individual and the city.
Host: Yeah, so let us know what you think in the comments below. We really appreciate it. All right, Scott, shall we get out of here?
Guest: Let’s do it.
Host: That wraps up this episode of The BiggerPockets Money Podcast. He is Scott Trench. I am Mindy Jensen saying, “See you around the playground!”
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