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Speaker 2: Hello, hello, hello and welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. We have a special week on the podcast. Last year, we had Paul Ollinger on the podcast, and he lives in New York City. Scott called out that achieving financial independence in a high cost of living area like New York City is nearly impossible. And the New York City community said, uh, excuse me, Scott, no, it’s not. Our audience is filled with smart people and they know how to make the most of an expensive city. This week, Scott and I are going to highlight four people’s different stories, working towards or achieving financial independence in the Big Apple. Today, we’re talking with Eli. Eli is just 24 years old and already on track to hit Coast Fi by age 30. And he’s doing it while living in New York City. Eli argues that living in the city is actually accelerating his path, thanks to unique opportunities and big city hacks, you won’t find in a smaller town. Eli breaks down his personal numbers and story in today’s episode.
Scott: Eli, thank you so much for joining us and welcome to Bigger Pockets Money.
Guest: Thank you so much for having me. I’m really excited to be here. A long time listener, big-time follower. I was just listening to your book right before the recording started.
Scott: Oh, fantastic. Well, thank you so much again for for all the support and for joining us. And I think, uh, you know, just as we discussed, I put out a challenge out there where I said, hey, I think that uh, fire is probably less appealing, less popular, maybe less practical to pursue for folks living in New York City and Manhattan in particular. And a good chunk of people actually reached out to me and you were you were one of them and so I’d love to hear, you know, a quick reaction to that and then of course, let’s get into your your story.
Guest: I have definitely been described as somewhat contrarian. And I think that that uh really aligns nicely with fire because on the surface, absolutely you are correct. New York City is the worst place to fire or pursue financial indepese or really have much of anything. But I think that fire is all about looking kind of beneath the surface and figuring out what actually makes things work, what actually makes things tick. and I’ve calculated that I would have a higher salary and that I can control my expenses. And that right out of college, I know that the most important thing is to pay off that student debt if it’s above, you know, 6 to 8% interest depending on who you hold like, as well as securing a high starting salary because that is one of the single biggest determinants at least in the traditional world of whether your lifetime earnings, what that will look like. So for me it was very important to secure, I would say on the high end and then control what I can control. And thanks to fire, I feel like I’ve had a really solid control and that I have raised my earnings from 82,000 when I first started at my company to 91,000 within about six months and my expenses are below 40,000. I would say over a year and I would say that’s specifically, you know, the basics. I do like to spend money on Broadway. So that is my uh the guilty pleasure.
Scott: Can you give us a breakdown of what your expenses look like on this income? uh because I think that the challenge is not hard for people to understand, hey, there’s a lot of really good income earning opportunities in New York City. But it’s that keeping your expenses low means deprivation or is impossible when you’re living in in Manhattan or New York City.
Guest: You’re completely right. I would say the number one expense if people typically are concerned about is usually rent. And I would say you can’t necessarily house hack in the same way. It’s much more difficult. I would say buy a property in New York City than it might be elsewhere. and there’s a huge, I would say, burden when it comes to regulation. But once you have rent, it’s almost like unlocking the best credit card bonuses ever. So let’s say people are usually not willing to pay $700 a month for an MX platinum, but those who do recognize that there might be an extraordinary amount of benefits that are unlocked. To me that’s the same thing with rent. So my rent payment is $2,210 and that allows me to not have to pay for a car, doesn’t have have to pay for I don’t have to pay for insurance. I don’t have to pay for maintenance. I would say my travel is locked in at $134 a month. A groceries is something that in New York City is relatively more expensive, but I have been, I would say, living large in addition to, I would say, keeping more, I would say stricter dietary regulations. So, let’s say groceries, I’ve been able to keep at 350 as a max. Many months I don’t even get to that point. I would say eating out 200, I would say shopping and miscellaneous. I just kind of have as an extra 250 buffer. I usually don’t hit that. And I would say that your basics in New York City are controllable. If you are not ubereing everywhere, if you are living with roommates, if you are focused on what you can control, you absolutely can control your base level of expenses. It’s the luxuries that people feel that they’re in New York City they should experience. I would say that’s really what knocks people’s financial budget, of course, because if you’re shopping at Traitor Joe’s or the local Bodega, it’s really not that expensive compared to living upstate. I grew up upstate. I know that the prices are not that different. It’s really about where you’re go shopping, where you’re spending your time.
Mindy: Everybody on the path to fi has to control their expenses. So that’s not unique to New York, but there’s this, like, I mean, Scott and I don’t live in New York and we both feel that New York is super, super expensive. You have listed a lot of really low monthly expenses in your budget. Do you feel like you’re missing out on anything? Do you feel like, oh, I wish I could just loosen the person a little bit and do this thing? Or do you feel like you’re really getting it all because you live in New York and there’s so much to do?
Guest: So what I found is with enough time, you can find almost anything you want in New York for free. Instead of focusing on, let’s say I’m going to let’s say change my budget around. I’m going to figure out if I want a massage, I’m going to look at what what are all the different massage places, What are the promotions that they’re offering? If I want to go see a broadway show, there are apps that show you which Broadway shows you can get pre screenings to that you can actually, I saw Angelette front row center for free because I just looked on an app, I saw a free ticket. If I want to go to a fancy restaurant and this is actually another thing that I really want to talk about, which is in New York City, there’s so much people who want to live in New York City and corporations and many of them, I would say really focus on that. And that means that if I want to try a new restaurant, I can actually volunteer for my team and be like, next time we plan a team dinner or something. Let’s go to a restaurant that I choose. And because I’m volunteering, I’m putting myself out there, I’m able to be like, oh, that restaurant that might be $500 a plate. Let’s figure out what the corporate discount will do. and basically it’ll be taking control in that sense of figuring out not just what is going to be in my budget, what are the opportunities out there. Like I have not paid for Starbucks over the past year because I am the person who gets coffee for my team and I basically get thousands of Starbucks stars. Those are kind of the little things that I have been doing to I would say live New York City to the fullest.
Scott: Remind us what your day job is?
Guest: I do accounting. More specifically auditing.
Scott: What a surprise.
Guest: I know, crazy.
Scott: So you do you do auditing here and I assume this is, you’re a highly paid accountant in New York City, great job out of college, it sounds like here. and how much food is provided by your employer on an ongoing basis in your situation?
Guest: Significant amounts. For example, I’m about to approach busy season. They are giving a a per D amount for coffee, for restaurants. So if I want to get takeout and I want to choose a restaurant, I can get up to a certain amount paid for by the company. So that definitely does make the food budget significantly less and able to experience New York City to the fullest.
Scott: I figured that was going to be the case. So and then second, how many hours would you say you’re putting in on average and then on and off peak?
Guest: I’m assuming you’re talking about my job specifically.
Scott: Yes.
Guest: So that is a great question because there’s billable, non billable and as an accountant, you know, there’s so many other things. And I would say from a your money or your life perspective, I would say it’s from about 8:00 a.m. till about 7:00 p.m. on off peak. And when it comes to peak season, that’s about three months, that is potentially as much as, you know, 8:00 a.m. to two there, there are two a.m. nights, there are weekends sometimes. So yes, I would say from a typical job perspective, it’s significantly more than 9 to five. However, there are also going to be times when you’re working two days a week. for example, because it’s a very seasonal type of job and that you’re, I’m working on with financial statements. It’s matters when the financial statements are put out. There were days when, you know, I’m studying for the CPA at my aunt’s, you know, house or something like that where I’m like on the rooftop of my building and just enjoying because the job is very much, when you’re working, you’re working hard, but they’re also, you know, paying for food, they’re paying for a lot of things. And when they don’t need you, like you’re not really doing crazy silly busy work, which is something I have appreciated.
Scott: This makes sense to me. This is in line with what I understand the life of peers who went into New York City in investment banking or big four accounting or those types, you know, big law those types of careers in New York City. Your life is is work for at least during the week for the most of it for for these these big chunks, right? 8:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. is a big day. That’s a much longer day than I really ever worked, excluding some periods of time when I was CEO. I never even during my CEO time, never got had an eight a.m. to two a.m. day. maybe one or two in the entire time running a pretty large company at Bigger Pockets. But that is a reality, I think for a lot of very high income earner, very high potential folks who get these close to six figure jobs right out of college in in New York City. I guess the question I would have there is, I would imagine that one, that that’s very conducive to accumulating money because you’re spending all this time at work, you’re getting a lot of pay presumably a bonus, presumably a very large career trajectory and there’s no opportunity to spend the money anywhere else. And there’s not so there’s not really a reason to live large in the the chunk of time that’s remaining. How do you think this will change in four or five years though because if you keep on this trajectory, I imagine it’s not gonna be like you’re gonna get a 10% raise every year. It’s you’re gonna get a 30 or 50% raise and you’re gonna be earning multiple six figures by the time you’re 30 you’re 24 right now, I believe, right? Maybe even more than that, maybe approaching seven figures depending on how the trajectory goes by your mid thirties in this type of career and will the perspective begin to change at that point or how do you think that’ll evolve for you? Am I getting anywhere close to to describing your reality?
Guest: You are describing every single young person who’s trying to figure that out because I actually started a community that I’m calling Sparks because we’re people who are just getting started into fire and we’re kind of dealing with these issues where we’re like, we don’t know ourselves, we don’t have a family, our fixed expenses are not certain. Like right now, I know that my life is going to dramatically change over the next five years. So how can I possibly plan? And I think that that’s where I’m really thinking about the next endeavor and where I think of New York City as an arbitrage opportunity. I don’t necessarily plan on living in New York City my entire life. I view this as a chapter and that the amount of money that I’ve accumulated is not necessarily meant to for me personally to continue to live life in New York City, continuing to live life on hard mode. I view that I can buy a house in let’s say the Georgia Eagle co-housing community. That’s what they’re going for about 120,000. So that means if in one year I could buy the house outright. I kind of view another point is I’m working two to three jobs. I’m earning not that much money per job, but I would say, I kind of also view right now as a learning experience and almost getting my PhD in accounting and getting paid to do it. So, whereas many of my peers are on a PC program with a stipend to 40 grand and barely covering expenses, continuing to go into credit card debt, you know, continuing to have student loans, things like that. I view that I’m actually not in my earning years yet. I’m trying to figure out what I want to do. And I look, the Jen has officially pushed out millennials when it comes to everyone writing articles calling them lazy and everything else.
Scott: Whatever you’re doing ain’t lazy.
Guest: Thank you. And I would say another inspiration is, I would say, also Hamilton trying to work like I’m running out of time and for better or worse that has left an imprint on me. But I also want to push back a little bit on the assumption that you made, which is this is the longest, you know, you maybe that you’ve ever worked but for me, I used to go to school six days a week and every other Saturday, we would remain in school. And I would be waking up at about 6:00 a.m. and I would be getting home at about 11:00 p.m. So for me, like that was a religious school where like we had extraordinarily long hours. And I’ll be honest, this almost feels easier in that I’m a lot more in control. a lot more things and I’m only working five days a week and the occasional weekend. So for me that that mindset shift, I definitely recognize is something that might be more unique to me, but I kind of view what I’m doing as a learning opportunity as supposed to work. And I feel like once you’re able to make work not like that exhausting sounding sigh of, what am I doing here? I’m trying to get to that fine number, what like I can’t believe rent is due next month and it’s figuring out. Ok, I’m going to be seeing my friend and I would say just about keeping busy, uh socializing as much as possible and really having a clear picture of what life could look like. my yearbook quote was, it is what it is, but it’s what it could be. And I think that that’s what I’m trying to apply to, I would say work and fire. So I’m not really trying to calculate my trajectory currently, I’m trying to calculate when’s the optimal jumping off point of this current trajectory.
Scott: I think this is super interesting here, right? So it’s enviable, right? The strategy is is I’m gonna work crazy hours, though they’re easy for me because I’ve been doing it since high school. Which by the way I had I had a similar experience in high school. I just didn’t I’m only considering the time spent at work in that my my life was definitely, you know, my early mid twenties very similar to what you’re describing here in terms of really mornings out and about, but some of it was recreation rugby or, you know, athletic pursuits and those types of things, not just work for me at that point in time. Now that I have a family, that’s not something I’m I’m willing to do or or would be reasonable at this point. And so the strategy has to be, I’m gonna earn so much, my earning power is going to explode so much in this profession while I’m in New York, that it’s going to give me these options if I whenever I jump ship and move to a different geography here. or that I’ll just earn so much that it kind of obviates the need to do all this other stuff, right? I’m like it’s gonna be so much money that I can live a lavish lifestyle or a pretty pretty nice lifestyle and invest through all my accounts and have plenty of money to build left over and enjoy, you know, all the best things that New York City or where the area that I’m I choose to live in has to offer. I think the traditional fire advice, the the typical fire path is not built for someone with that trajectory, right? where it, I’m going to earn a lot and and have high expenses in my early twenties, but then it’s just going to explode. so it’s so high that it really doesn’t makes all this other stuff less important. Does that jade your approach to fire or is it really just I’m gonna accumulate and jump ship as soon as I possibly can at this point.
Guest: So I used to joke that as a kid, I wanted that my favorite subject was recess and that my ideal job was I want to be a retired philanthropist. Now, I did not know about the fire community back then. But let me tell you that retired philanthropist dream is still alive and well. And I would say that you’re right that many of my peers, I would say, reject it and that they’re look looking why am I going to stop when my ideal income earning years are just down the line. and I think that that’s why they’re terrified of AI because they need the current circumstances to remain the same. Whereas I look at it as I’m using this opportunity to learn skills from, I would say the standard, uh, like Big four is, I would say a huge training ground for a significant majority of many different professions. Like the the income component for me is, it’s a lot relative to my expenses. The way that I look at is if I were living in the suburbs, I would have more expenses, more things to worry about, more things to deal with. for example, 9 to 5 in the suburbs includes an hour of commute, potentially even more. For me, like my commute is 10, 20 minutes and like that, that’s something that I don’t have to worry about a car, car insurance, gas, fixing car. I actually just heard from my friend that, you know, she had to pick her her car from the mechanic and the bill was almost four grand. That’s something that I will never have to worry about as long as I’m living in the city, additionally, when it comes to the explosive income potential, I kind of see that as entrepreneurship. I look at fire as a way to get rich slowly in that it’s 20 years, which is still extraordinarily quick. I’m 24, so it doesn’t feel quick. like for me, I feel like my biggest financial mistake is that I did not buy a house in 2008 when I was seven years old. Truly a struggle. I view that New York City, I’m able to control my expenses. I know to earn relatively more amount of money. My life is relatively simpler, and I have the additional component which is, I made up an acronym for this, but basically I just think that socialization, commute, and quality of life in the city is significantly better compared to trying to fire in the suburbs.
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Scott: If you’ve been putting off life insurance, I get it. The old process was miserable. Phone calls with an agent, a nurse coming to your house for a blood draw, then waiting weeks to find out what you’d pay for. That friction is exactly why so many people who should have coverage don’t. Here’s what I believe. Most BP Money listeners need term life and the right move is to build a ladder. a few term policies of different lengths tacked together, so your coverage steps down, as your mortgage shrinks, and your kids get closer to being financially independent, or you get closer to hitting your financial independence number. The thing that makes that practical now is Ethos, a platform that helps you find life insurance all 100% online. Same day coverage, no medical exam. You just answer a few health questions online. Up to $3 million in coverage. Some policies as low as $30 a month. So building a two or three layer ladder that used to take a month of appointments is something you can knock out before your coffee gets cold. Get your free quote at ethos.com/bpmoney. That is ethos.com/bpmoney. Application times may vary and rates may vary.
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Scott: So will you fire in New York City or do you think you will move geographically in a few years, somewhere else? Like what is your best guess? I know that that’s up in the air. You’re 24 and life is can unfold a million different ways. But what is the kind of tentative plan?
Guest: I feel so blessed that I have so many fire role models in New York City. So initially my plan was very much earn jump ship. And now I’m looking at these mentors of mine who are living in New York City. They’re firing and they’re able to take the fastest city in the world, right? The one that never sleeps and like take naps, relax, enjoy, right? In the middle of the day when everyone’s at work, they’re enjoying all the opportunities that New York City has to offer. You know, instead of waiting till the holiday season to enjoy whatever perks there are, they’re able to really appreciate New York City at its fullest. and another component is if I were to stay in New York City, rent increases significantly less compared to salaries because of, I would say a lot of the regulations involved. So while rent might be taking up approximately a little under 30% of my current pay over the next 10 years, it’ll be significantly less than that, just because of that delta between the two growth. So I can see myself potentially living in New York City. The thing is, I can’t really see myself raising a family in New York City. And this is where I’m starting to think of fire as an evolutionary system. and that initially it was all about math. Then it moved to mental health, right? I like that’s when we’re talking about middle class trap, Death March to fire, all these, I would say terms to try to describe the feelings that we’re experiencing. And now I’m almost trying to think of the next stage is philosophy, like what is the purpose of life? What are we trying to optimize for? Because once we recognize that optimizing for money is not ideal, like I don’t know, I could totally see myself living singly in New York City, but I, you know, trying to figure out what what do I want in life? and that’s a question that I feel like is better answered in New York City amongst friends, amongst many people with a variety of different experiences as opposed to kind of in my house hack in the suburbs, not to throw shade, but, you know, I could definitely see myself just, you know, never leaving the house because I never want to spend money. Whereas in New York City, it’s almost like a sun cost and obviously that’s not the best way to manage your finances. But, you know, it definitely seems to be working a little bit.
Mindy: I lived in Chicago, it’s not nearly as big as New York, but it still had the same feel. You’re right. I lived in the suburbs of Chicago and in Chicago itself and there’s a lot more to do when you’re in the big city than there is in the suburbs. And yes, there’s things to do in the suburbs, but I found myself driving to the city quite a bit. I don’t find myself driving to the city of Denver so much just because it’s a different time in my life. I’ve got my kids and, you know, Longman’s pretty exciting. Back to New York and, you know, Chicago was expensive. New York when I visited feels expensive. What are some of the hacks that you have for keeping your expenses down, especially housing, which is according to the, uh, personal financial statement that you shared with us. And thank you so much for that. Rent is your number one expense by far. So what are some hacks you have for keeping all these expenses so low?
Guest: I kind of view it that I’m going to spend on what I need and whatever I want, I’m going to try to either earn extra money. So whether that’s a credit card bonuses, the bank bonuses, the sports like all these other ways. I view it that my salary is for my future and to cover my needs. If I want to do something fun, I need to figure out how to earn it, right? Like I I need to like reward myself so playing that game a little bit has definitely been extraordinarily helpful. I also think it’s changing the terms of the game and that how can I find this thing for free or significantly cheaper? So for example I have a rule that I will only spend $200 on Broadway a month. Now the question is how many shows can I see for $200 a month? Whereas most people are spending $200 on a single Broadway ticket. I have seen, I I have a little bit of a wall here, uh my little trophies. I’ve often seen as many as five Broadway shows in a single month and I think that that’s because I’ve put in the time to learn and I recognize that there’s almost a triangle, in accounting we think of something that’s called the fraud triangle, which is like motive ability, and opportunity, probably quoting that wrong. But I kind of think of it there’s cheap, quick and quality. So if you are a tourist in New York City everything has to be quick and you’re only going to go for the quality. So already on that kind of triangle, you have to have two things which then means it’s very likely not going to be cheap. Whereas for me, because I can learn about it, right? I can learn when are the deals on, right? When is everything going to be cheaper? right? What are the free promotions? So many things in New York City are free. Like so many of the best places where they literally like in Broadway, they literally need the seats to be filled as much as possible. So I can log on to an app about 20 minutes before the show starts and I can find tickets for, you know, 10, $20. And if you are planning your trip two months in advance and you are looking at the prices, those prices are not the same prices.
Mindy: They’re not.
Guest: Same thing when it comes to, I would say restaurants, if you’re going to be in the tosty section of Manhattan, it is very different than if you’re in the all you can eat Chinatown section. There’s someone in the New York City Fire community who has been an absolute inspiration when it comes to all you can eat, you know, like it’s an ace acronym. and it’s just the amount of food that you can eat for ridiculously low amount of money is mind boggling to me. But there there are people who do it.
Mindy: That’s awesome.
Scott: A it makes perfect sense. I probably could have done the same things here in Denver to some extent and just never really thought of through and it’s probably that much more powerful in a place like New York City to be able to do this kind of stuff. So that’s incredible. What else besides restaurants and Broadway shows do you or other people you know, what are they able to do to keep costs low?
Guest: Fashion and furniture. New York City is incredibly, incredibly expensive when it comes to real estate for these big box stores. So let me tell you that clearance section, has some of them might be $500 in a Nordrum outside of New York for $9 because they’re trying to get the quickest fashion out as quickly as possible in front of the people who are actually willing to buy. So if they have something that isn’t going to the front shelf, they’re not necessarily going to ship it off to somewhere else. They’re going to ship it to the clearance section. and New York City is like a fashion capital from what I understand, and you can find incredible things for incredibly cheap if you’re looking not in the front window. Uh an additionally when it comes to furniture, Facebook marketplace like I remember listening to a two Fi episode where people talk about the Ali will provide. And I’m like in New York City if you are on a WhatsApp, there are WhatsApp chats, there’s Facebook chats, there are like all these things where people like there are building chats, there’s a building email list where it’s like, hey, I’m moving. Here’s all this stuff that I just need to get rid of, have it. And like my desk is from there, my monitors and like this is like quality stuff and again, I’m not going to be really getting clothing from these chats, but something that’s like, it can be furniture or something that’s like a cooking utensil or like something where, you know, you can clean it and it’s gonna be fine. There’s almost no reason to be spending in these, I I look at New York City as the showroom. And whenever there’s a showroom, there’s usually a out of box opportunity.
Mindy: The alley will provide, the curb will provide. I will walk down, you know, we’ll stay someplace and we just, we walk everywhere in New York or we’ll take the train one way and then walk back. But there’s really, really awesome furniture that I walk past and I’m visiting and I can’t take it with me. I’m like, man, how can I get that home?
Guest: Text me next time you see that.
Mindy: I will.
Scott: Here’s another thing I think people don’t really get about New York City or at least I have a bias. I’m going to see if it’s confirmed when you answer this question. Let’s say you lose your job, right? Or let you, your division shuts down. very I know it’s very unlikely in your particular situation but, but let’s say that your company goes out of business, they move on from you or your boss or just closes your division for some reason overnight. You’re not expecting it. How easy would it be relatively speaking for you to get another job in the same sector at similar pay where you live?
Guest: So, I don’t know the answer to that in that I have not done that for myself. I do know that I’ve been helping several of my friends find jobs. New York City is very difficult if you go about things in the traditional way, what I found and this is where I would say I do have some level of expertise about two years ago, which was I actually had seven jobs, four fellowships, and then realized I could make more money starting my own business. To me, it’s really about really just putting on public forums. Hey, I’m looking for a job, not really doing LinkedIn easy apply, right? Like I really don’t think that you can go into a place and be like, here’s my resume that simply will not work. You will not get past the security guards, the dormen or anything without a badge. But if you know someone, so I know that in New York City, there’s so many public places. I got some of my jobs through Equinox, right? Like I was just talking to people in the steam room, you know, I was that guy. And I actually ended up making more money between clients and the jobs that I found, right, like fellowship opportunities by speaking with people in public settings because the people in New York City and this is one thing that I wish to one day be able to provide, they want to mentor. They want to say like, hey, what’s this young whipper snapper doing? you know, like how can I help them? right? Like here’s here’s a push in the right direction. I think that in New York City there’s definitely opportunities to find jobs. I don’t know if they will be equivalent jobs. I do think though that you will be able to find a job fairly quickly if you are really putting yourself in, I would say the position to meet the people who are hiring or know the people who are looking for people to hire. I think that online in New York City simply does not exist.
Scott: That was where my bias would have been and I think I need to check it a little bit here, but it would have been that New York City is relatively the best, I’m going to rephrase it to least bad based on what you said here in terms of being able to find a replacement job of any major city in the United States in most fields because in Denver, for example, you know, if the company that’s hiring you goes out of business or doesn’t have a job, it’s not like there’s like 150 other companies of that same type in the city that are hiring, right? You’re gonna have to hire, get a remote job or you’re gonna have to do something that’s a little bit different and that could be a threat to your standard of living. But in New York City, I’d imagine there are dozens of firms that do very similar types of activities to the work that you’re doing. And so you have a much better relative shot at getting replacement pay, if not full pay having a smaller reduction in pay if you end up losing your job. That would be that would be my bias going into that that question, but it it sounds like that is somewhat true but, but needs to be couch a little bit. There’s a big networking component too.
Guest: I also think that an addition to New York City there’s not nearly as much layoffs compared to people jumping ship. So what usually will happen is like they’re not gonna give a bonus one year and that’s basically the sign. OK. If people don’t leave, we’re cutting jobs. So a lot of times people will leave and they’re usually gonna leave for a higher salary because as you know, like if you’re staying at a job more than two, three, four years, you’re usually getting paid significantly less than your counterpart. An example of this is like in my own firm, like I’ve had conversations with people where they’re shocked to see how much the starting people are making now because when they first started, it was significantly less. So in New York City, there’s a huge, I would say entry level component where there’s entry level competition where firms are looking to hire and they’re willing to pay relatively top dollar. and then I would say there’s the secondary component when you are looking to out to get to the next position and you’re willing to reach for it and you’ve shown that you’re capable because as I mentioned, the New York City work culture is significantly different than I would say other areas in the United States and I would say for good reason. But that’s, I would say a boon in the sense that companies are willing to pay because you have the New York City training versus other places. And this is, I would say, just from some conversations that I’ve had with recruiters. But yeah, you you constantly have to be reaching out to recruiters. I would say to see what is my market level at. I can definitely say from my perspective, uh for me, the goal was to learn as much as I can and then re-evaluate. I would say I’m definitely coming to a point where I’m going to be re-evaluating in the near future. Uh I would say after this coming busy season and I can give an update but I think that it’s really about the recruiters in New York City, they’re the ones who are the gate keepers to the job, uh the hiring managers, they’re the ones who can point you in the right recruiter’s direction.
Mindy: Any tips for making friends with recruiters?
Guest: Absolutely. So that is something where LinkedIn actually can be very helpful. If you offer to buy a recruiter a coffee, they’re usually going to be friends with you. I would say another thing is go to spaces where recruiters are going to be at. So there are so many colleges in New York City, there’s so many job fairs that are open to alumni as well. and there’s a lot of opportunity for plus ones and there’s a lot of, I would say open houses run by corporations, run by different things and there are so many free events in New York City like there’s a philosophy club in New York City. I met a recruiter there, you know, like that’s not, you know, necessarily where you’re going to typically meet someone. But I would say in New York City, as long as you’re not in your apartment, you might find a recruiter, you might find someone who knows someone. And I think in New York City, there’s very much kind of this tacit acknowledgement that everyone’s trying to do better because otherwise, why are you paying so much in rent? Like what’s the point? Like if you’re just kind of chilling, that that is a little bit counter to your long-term goals because New York City doesn’t really make sense to be the place to relax and watch the sunrise and sunset, unless you have, you know, a nice fire portfolio and a couple of rentals because then you already beat the game. But if you’re playing it, you’re, you’re trying to speed run it.
Scott: I feel both proven wrong by your clearly pursuing fire very successfully at a young age starting in Manhattan here. And I feel partially validated because my initial bias of, hey, if I’m living in Manhattan and I’m earning all this money, it’s because I probably want to be the best in the world or among the best in my profession in this particular area. And New York City provides that, right? I can I can just focus on that. I can make so much money that it obviates the other issues in my life and I can get the best bagel in the world around that corner, see the best show in the world around that corner, go to the best restaurant here for for dinner on Tuesday and do everything in between, I can go to a sporting event, I can go to a show, I can go to, you know, the best shopping, I can go, you know, to the best fitness centers here and hang around with with uh celebrities, they’re all right there if that’s what I want here because the city just provides that. and then I can just focus entirely on work and it it’s all, as long as I have the money, able to be around me. It sounds like that is real, and that is a drawback or a constraint or a situation to deal with mentally where you’re going through it. But the opportunity to pursue fire is also there. And for those inclined to hustling and developing the skill of enjoying the city fire in New York City also offers all of that. maybe not on your terms, you know, maybe you got to be flexible. I’m not gonna be able to see the the show on Friday night on a peak weekend, but I can see it on Tuesday and I can see it for 10 bucks while I pursue fire and while I am fire in Manhattan. Is that is that the right takeaway I should have from this conversation?
Guest: I definitely think so. I think that when it comes to fire New York City fire is going to look very different than most of what I’ve been hearing and I would say one of the skills that I’ve developed in New York City is being able to listen to podcasts at four times speed. So it’s very interesting to hear your voices at regular sound.
Mindy: I didn’t even think I could speak at four times speed.
Scott: I can barely understand myself at two times speed.
Mindy: You are not the first person that has said that to me. I listen to you at two times speed. You talk so slow.
Guest: I would say if I were to be able to really drill down on what the takeaway is, fire is already extreme, right? compared to the huge majority of America, even the world, right’s a huge opportunity and you are going to make choices that are gonna be different than your neighbors. If you’re pursuing fire in New York City, it can be that times 10, right? Because you can have opportunities that you might not have elsewhere. So I would say not to, you know, showboat or really like talk of New York City too much, but I I really think that New York City has the most opportunity to really leverage and I think that when you’re young, right? That’s when you should try to be getting as many levers as possible and really figure out with the least amount of time, but the most amount of effort, what can I do? and I think that that’s going to be rewarded more in New York City or a city in general as opposed to kind of the traditional advice, which I think is extremely valid but in a different circumstance. So I would say the New York City challenge is how do you apply fire in New York City? And that’s something that uh there’s a wonderful community that a lot of people are doing and uh I can definitely say that the New York City Fire community has been absolutely incredible. But that’s also because I don’t know any other fire community just yet. but I’m looking to get to know more.
Scott: Well love it. Thank you so much Eli for for sharing all this. It’s really really learned a lot here and I think there’s much more nuance to this than my initial dismissal of it a few months ago.
Guest: Well, your initial dismissal is correct, but as you know, it’s also ridiculous to be retiring before 65.
Scott: Fair enough.
Mindy: Yes, So you were both right. Eli, congratulations on everything that you’ve achieved so far and the fantastic jump start you have to your financial independence journey. Thank you for sharing it with us.
Guest: I view that I’m standing on the shoulders of you and so many others who have been able to give me this knowledge. So, like thank you again, truly like I would probably be like every other New Yorker who’s, you know, living paycheck to paycheck in credit card debt, if not for the fire community. So I think that applying fire principles can help you no matter where you are, even in New York City.
Mindy: Awesome. Ok, thank you so much Eli and we’ll talk to you soon.
Guest: Thank you. OK. Bye.
Mindy: All right. That was Eli’s story and I was so excited for all the different tips he shared on how to reach financial independence in a bigger city. Eli, I am so thankful that you reached out to us to say, excuse me, Scott, that’s not true, you can reach financial Independence in the big Apple. If you want more financial independence information, head on over to biggerpocketsmoney.com and sign up for our newsletter. We send it out once a week on Wednesdays. We also have free resources, calculators, and templates to help you accelerate your financial independence journey. And we cannot wait to see you tomorrow for Wally Miller’s bonus episode on her unique financial independence story where her combined income has never been over $200,000 all while living in New York City. That wraps up this episode of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. He has got trench. I am Mindy Jensen saying, see you soon, raccoon.
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