Speaker 1: Welcome to the BiggerPockets Money podcast where we interview Gabrielle Judge and talk about quiet quitting, anti-work, TikTok, and leveraging ChatGPT.
Scott: Hello, hello, hello. My name is Scott Trench and with me today is Amanda Wolf from the She Wolf of Wall Street who is going to be a recurring contributor to the BiggerPockets Money podcast.
Guest 1: Thanks Scott. I’m excited to join the BP Money pack.
Scott: All right, that was good. I love it. Amanda and I are here to make financial independence less scary, less just for somebody else, to introduce you to every money story because we truly believe financial freedom is attainable for everyone, no matter where or when you’re starting, or what generation you’re a part of.
Guest 1: So whether you want to retire early and travel the world, go on to make big time investments and assets like real estate, or start your own business, we’ll help you reach your financial goals and get money out of the way so you can launch yourself towards your dreams.
Scott: Well Amanda, I’m so excited you could you could join us today. What’s going on in your world?
Guest 1: You know, I’m so excited to be here. I really, really loved our conversation today with Gabrielle because I um, She Wolf of Wall Street, am a content creator as well and I have a nine to five job in tech too. So there were so many um really good parallels in our conversation that I really was able to relate to and I just really, really loved our conversation, especially around quiet quitting, which I think um sometimes tends to raise some eyebrows, but have an open mind here because I think she just did a really, really great job of framing it.
Scott: Absolutely. I think that uh if you’re not part of Gen Z, quiet quitting makes you think, what are these these folks, are they being lazy? Are they giving up their careers? Whatever. But no, quiet quitting, I think is just the Gen Z’s parallel to the FIRE movement, essentially, right? It’s a spin off of that. And it’s about the same goal, work life balance and spending, spending your time the way that you want to. And I think that before you dismiss the term quiet quitting, understand what it means as Gabrielle, who’s a thought leader in this space, has defined it, and I think you will uh open your eyes to, again, just the flavor that Gen Z has put on this age old concept um and the way that they’re pursuing it.
Guest 1: I think we’ll all see that really quiet quitting is the foundation to FIRE. It’s like they took this age old concept and just added another layer to it um to help us get to that next level and to help us live a life that we have truly dreamed of.
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Guest 1: All right, should we bring in Gabrielle?
Scott: Let’s do it. Gabrielle Judge is a TikTok influencer with over 87,000 followers. She’s been featured in the New York Times and Bloomberg about quiet quitting, and she also has a company called Anti-Work Girl Boss.
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Scott: Gabrielle, we are so excited to have you today. Thank you so much for joining us.
Guest 2: Thanks everyone. Thanks Scott and Amanda. I’m super excited to be on.
Scott: Awesome. Will you tell us a little bit about yourself and your relationship with money growing up?
Guest 2: Yeah, so today I’m a I’m a content creator. So I have over 100k followers on TikTok and then my brand Antiwork Girlboss, so they kind of just like coexist together. Um, and so really over there we debunk tech, money and the future of work in just a very like Gen Z filter. Um, really what inspired that and and how my upbringing came is I was raised by a single mom. It wasn’t it like she tried her best, right? And like we definitely had like a, like a, sometimes lower middle class, it just depended, you know, on the year and what was going on and sometimes like middle class, you know. So I got to taste like different sides of it all. Um, when my parents were together, I was in Princeton, New Jersey and so that’s like a more like richer area and I got to see that and then slowly as my mom like really took the reins, then I started to live in like low-income housing for a second. So I really got to see that aspect of things and so I was raised I think with a little bit more of like a scarcity mindset and I think that that’s just because of the programming that, you know, they were exposed to at that time and just, you know, my generations before me. I’m first generation to go to college as well. So there was some convincing of like even explaining what college was and the process and like what my degree was going to be like with my family and stuff. So that was always like quite a challenge and quite a really interesting process because I got to learn how to like advocate for myself. So I’m very grateful for all that all that experience. For me, my parents were very blue collar but they were very entrepreneurial. So they taught me like to show up every day for work and I really got that traditional work ethic from them. So I’m very grateful overall for just the different flavors of my childhood.
Guest 1: I love that. Thank you so much for sharing that background and I just have to say I was really excited to um discover you because I think that there’s a lot of parallels in our lives. Um I also work in Tech 9 to 5, um and then I’m also a full-time content creator as my second full-time job. And I want to know how did you make the jump from corporate America to full-time content creator using that like scarcity mindset that you grew up with up until today, right? Because that’s really scary to leave what a quote unquote, if you can’t see me quoting right now, a secure job. So how did you make that leap and how did your background influence you to do that?
Guest 2: You know, I I think that my answer to that will also mature with time. It’s still just so everyone that’s listening like my last day was March 31st of this year, so it’s like quite raw, it’s quite new. Um, really for me, I as I started, I worked at a at a bigger public tech company that we’ve all hired before. Um, I I worked there until March 31st and so as I was starting that job in March 2021 is when I started to cultivate a following. I probably had like 30 or 40k followers and so I always told myself when this employer gets in the way with the other stuff, that’s when I make the jump. That was just like my promise. That was kind of like my metric of of when to leave because no one’s gonna tell you, right? And so there was like tons of games that I’d play with myself of like, well maybe I’ll get laid off today and like that comes off with so much privilege but it was like I was looking for someone to just tell me to leave and go do it and like it just doesn’t work that way. So as an entrepreneur, I was like, okay, so I create that permission for myself. And there was moments where recently this year, I mean, you probably understand this in the big tech world, it’s like you have to think of yourself as a business. At the end of the day, I try to really like think of that when it comes to my followers and you know, what they’re listening to and when I’m articulating with them, there has to be an ROI for the job. And so for me, I wasn’t really growing anymore, there wasn’t any room for any raises, but they were asking for more work this year and I was just like, it’s just not a good fit. And so I felt like every, there were so many subtle messages for me to take the leap and do it. It’s just I was getting in the way of myself. And so I really, as I’m cultivating a lot of my content for this month, I’m also trying to be really transparent and thoughtful about that because I’m just like, I still get in the way of myself and there’s so many people that look up to me and like where can I tell that story and still try to like be a mentor for people who may want to do the same thing or something that I do either intrigues them, stuff like that.
Guest 1: Yeah, I love that. Um and I have to ask, so um obviously it’s like a big scary decision to leave a full-time job, go into content creation, but for a while you are kind of doing, not kind of doing two full-time jobs, you are doing two full-time jobs, right? So um how did that affect you from like a mental health perspective or a burnout perspective?
Guest 2: Such a good question. I got management in October, I got talent management and so that was, I guess probably the best thing that happened to me, um, and I’m very grateful for my team and stuff that I’ve had.
Scott: Can you define what got talent management means?
Guest 2: Yes, yes, that’s a that’s a very good emphasis. So, talent management, I mean it looks different for any type of like creator or internet persona or creative as a whole. Um but for me, I have talent management meaning I have someone that owns the whole business side of things. So I have a business background and I’m very comfortable owning my sponsorships. For those who don’t know, sponsorships is a huge way that creators get paid so that we don’t have to always constantly sell stuff to you or think of different ways to make money. It’s a great way to really create a win-win because we can find partnerships where their message or their offering is like such a gift for our community and we really want to like put that stamp of approval on it and leverage our audience. And so for me, the back and forth of the brand deals, like having the business side of things, having the creative side of things on my 9 to five trying to be a normal 20, I was I just turned 26. So like 25 year old or whatever. It was a mess and I would say that there were certain moments that were really hard, and there was a lot of moments that I felt alienated because there’s not a lot of people doing this, if that makes sense. So it would just be like very hard to kind of articulate what was going on. Um, but I it really pushed me to create a community of creators. I think like any time that I see an up and coming creator or someone who is interested in becoming a creator, I’m always like find like 10 people. You need those types of people that understand the ups and downs. You need those people that understand your creative process, like you need people to understand just the work it is, like sometimes we say up to like midnight making content or doing emails or whatever, and then we have work in the morning that we still get to like show up and be our best selves for. So it was never like a, oh I had everything perfect all the time, but it’s just such a plug and play of like learning how to delegate, learning how to create space for yourself and take care of yourself. Like one thing that I always preach to is like, I can’t make a doppelganger of myself and it’s me at the end of the day. So it’s like if I’m not feeding this machine and like caring for myself, loving myself, it it it shows like sometimes my, literally, sometimes I get comments of like, are you okay right now or like, what’s going on? Like people know they can see it.
Scott: I’m always interested when folks leave their job to pursue these types of ventures in what your personal financial position looks like and how that influences. For example, someone with more cash and a little bit of passive income or promising start to their side hustle might feel very comfortable leaving the job and someone without that buffer, maybe with a lot of credit card debt, uh might feel much less comfortable with that. Would you give us a kind of an overview of how you would self-assess your your personal financial position and how that may or may not have contributed to your leaving your corporate job?
Guest 2: Yes. Okay, so that is such a good question. It’s not a one size fits all and prior to this I thought it was. So I thought it was like this check, checklist of like save nine months or whatever it’s going to be, save this, do this and then like one day someone’s gonna like anoint you with a wand and be like, you can now leave and like that’s just not how it works. So for me, mine looks a little bit different. So like to be transparent, I don’t keep like tons and tons of money in a savings account and I’ll go into like why. So I don’t have like that big lump sum. I mean, obviously there’s things that can be liquidated and stuff like that, but I don’t have this like big lump sum that I think that we’re taught to quit. Um, I also have debt but it’s good debt for the most part. So there was some investments I made in my business developing physical products and things like that. Um, there’s also investments that I made where I like hard money lent money. Um, so I was kind of like being the bank for a specific situations. So the really great thing is for the next 12 months, so for the next year, I have a payment that comes in passively from one of my hard money uh loans and that pays for my bad debt, my personal bad debt. So that’s my college loan and my car payment. And so I don’t have to worry about that stuff. Course, obviously I have rent and like everything else going on, but at least like the bad debt that I like cannot mispayment on or my credit will be reflected, that’s stuff is paid for. So for me I was like, okay, that makes the most sense. The second part of it is there was already proof of concept with the side hustle that I had at the time, air quotes in side hustle because obviously now it’s my full-time job, but I already had proof of concept that I could produce five figure months and and do that. And so it was like, okay, I understand that like I have this proof of concept now if I just maintain or even exceed effort and amount. So if it comes to like lead gen or any type of product development or increasing, you know, the the quality of my content so that I’m getting better reach on stuff. Like there’s so many different ways that you can play around with it, then I can like move forward. Um so for me that was kind of like my gauging, like kind of gauge to it, but again, it’s it’s not a one size fits all. There’s some people that really do need large lump sums of money in the bank. I just don’t really keep that because I’m so young, I would rather take advantage of the time value of money.
Scott: Awesome. Would you classify your expenses as high, medium or low, your your personal spending on your life?
Guest 2: I’m in between a medium and a frugal. I was pretty frugal growing up, obviously because of my background and then putting myself through college and just I worked so many different jobs to make it all work while I was full-time in school. Um about 2020, I want to say, yeah, 20, I was 23 is when I made my first six figures and so from there, I really got to play around and I still I mean it’s still a game of like getting out of the scared sea mindset and frugal is good, like frugal is still good, especially for the economic health that we’re in right now. Like I wouldn’t really, you know, advise people to like kind of throw that money around like it’s nothing right now. Like it’s definitely something to be aware of. And so I think that I maintain that frugality, but I’ve also been playing around the last three years of like treating myself to a certain extent or investing in myself or not being so afraid of depositing money into investments and stuff that, you know, there could be a few extra zeros in that I’ve never seen before. I try to grow my stress tolerance when it comes comes to money, but overall like I don’t live this like super, super lavish life right now. I also do like really want to pursue the full-time content creation. I most responsibly, I want to stay open for investment opportunities, stuff like that. So it’s really just a balance.
Scott: I love it. I just want to observe you’re a a medium to late to late spender. You uh grounded out working your full-time job and creating content on the side to build a business into a place where it looked very promising. And you made the transition at a point in time when you thought that was the right bet uh for you in life. I also love the fact that you’re breaking a rule of personal finance where you’re doing a hard money loan, presumably, by the way, a hard money loan is for those listening is when you might lend to a fix and flip or short-term rehab project, usually at a high interest rate, 10 to 12%. I’m doing this with my personal portfolio with about a third of my portfolio. You’re breaking a rule just as I am. You’re doing this outside of your retirement accounts, it sounds like and you’re just collecting the simple interest income, right? That’s not very tax efficient, but what it does is it’s freeing. It allows you to have cash flow that you can then use to deploy for your other debts and your personal business. And I completely agree with it even though an accountant would give you a lot of grief. Um so anyways, that’s my observation spiel. I love it uh and completely aligned with the way you’re approaching your situation.
Guest 2: Thank you. I appreciate that. And for me too, I also encourage anyone to get into this and so the biggest objection that, you know, someone who’s listening may feel right now is I don’t have enough money and like that’s a completely fair um reason, but there’s also different ways that you can creatively gain funds. So one way that I do that is through a system called credit card stacking. And so I’m able to, you just need an LLC and if you don’t have one, um the company that I work with can also create that for you, which is like a super great supportive experience. Um, and so you can actually just leverage business credit cards with zero percent down and I have some programs where, you know, some are 12 months, some are 24 months zero percent and then you can really play with that. Again, that I think that would make an account really like climb up the wall and like get really, get really like afraid. But it’s like one way that you could also leverage this as well if you don’t have a lot of lump sum money right now. So tons of creative ways to do it. Hard money loans. I think aren’t the best represented sometimes because we have this like loan shark kind of vibe with them and and they’re really freeing if you can create a win-win with someone. Um, and also it’s a great way kind of where you were hinting earlier, it’s a great way to get into the real estate market. So the real estate market is so hard to get into right now is Gen Z and you can become an investor by lending money to anyone that you know who who either is like flipping a house or trying to buy a house or anything like that. You can be a bank for someone else right now and you don’t have to go through the whole loan approval process that we’re all so afraid of.
Guest 1: Yeah, I think that’s really like brave and smart of you to do that with your money. I love that. Um and I think when you were saying like some months are, you know, some credit cards are 12 months or 24 months, like there’s definitely some mathematical gymnastics that might need to happen um when it comes to that. So, how would you recommend somebody get educated? Is that mainly what your content focuses on or do you want to share what your content mainly focuses on?
Guest 2: I like to dive into creative ways to make investment decisions as a whole and then really educate that with my um audience. So for me, I’m not actually sponsored by like any of the, like I use Fun and Grow for an example, like they’re a great company that does credit card stacking. Like I’m not really necessarily affiliated by them or anything like that. It’s just something that I really like to show people and try to guide them to that success of their own. Um so for me, yeah, I I constantly, constantly debunk especially because like you come from a tech background as well, you’ll understand this. I constantly debunk the whole idea of like accredited investors. I constantly debunk like so many things that we understand as tech employees like we almost like have to be an investor that’s like sitting on this like shark tank seat and we have to be making like a million dollars a year and we have to go find like the big tech unicorn, like it’s just not like that anymore. And so for me, like I became a seed investor at 23 and so I did that through equity crowdfunding. And that was a really, really cool way where I wasn’t accredited. Um I didn’t really have to go through all these like gate kept, you know, hoops to get there or anything like that. That was a really, really great way for me to enter the door when it came to like any investments. So there’s stuff like that, just small stories or small ways that I kind of find to cheat the system, quote unquote, that I really, really preach to my audience because for me, I just don’t think that there’s anyone that looks like me, that’s that’s really trying to make this cool if that makes sense. I think there’s just a lack of representation when it comes to women in finance, when it comes to Gen Z in finance, I think we’re still looked at as like 14 year old kids, but I mean I’m 26. like we’re definitely very much in the job market and and doing things now. So, um, I try to make like this boring stuff very cool.
Scott: I’m a big bull for the Gen Zers. I think I I am a millennial unfortunately. Fortunately, whatever. Uh but uh the Gen Z, that you guys have I think have a much better handle on money. I think you’re much more um, what’s the word? cautious or careful or um a little skeptical that a lot of the things uh that baby boomers or Gen X maybe received and Social Security and those types of things are going to be available for you. And there’s a lot more interest I think. when I talk to people about financial independence. Yeah, a couple of my friends are are interested in it. It’s still not like most of the generation or anything, but when I was starting out on my journey, there was nobody like that that I knew that was going down the same path. And so I think there’s a big advantage here and I’m uh I’ll I’ll put money on you guys. I I have a specific question about your content uh relating to a specific term, what what exactly is an anti-work girl boss and what does that mean?
Guest 2: I love that. Um yes, so anti-work girl boss is basically it’s just it’s the expansion of work life balance. I think this whole packaged work life balance that we practice today was a great stepping stone and I think the idea of work life balance really solidified in 2020. um with you know, being able to work from home and and people really going through this external factor together and just being like, hey, you know, how can we take care of ourselves and stuff like that. And work life balance to Gen Z will mean something much more expansive. So I I what I mean by that is Gen Z, I’m careful about this because I want to, I get stuck sometimes because I know that we’re considered like lazy to older generations. So I I try to maintain clear and like empathetic descriptions when I’m talking about this. So Gen Z believes that our 9 to five is on a dream job, right? Like millennials really fought for this whole dream job situation and I think that really carved the path for Gen Z where it was like, hey, I want to do something that’s passion filled. I want to do something that’s not just, you know, this corporate cog in the machine. Like I want to do something that’s more heart centered. That really created that stepping stone for us. We were more interested in cultivating highly valued skills that we can either work, you know, at a 9 to five and or work as a freelancer and or like be a side hustler, and or be a content creator. Gen Z is very multifaceted and so I actually read a study recently where Gen A, who’s like in elementary school right now, they just got surveyed and the biggest job that they want to be right now is content creators. So like and content creators as a whole, I mean, you’re wearing five hats at a time all the time. Like it’s a very multifaceted profession. So we’re seeing this taste and this interest for not just being the 9 to five. and I just actually made some content that I’m going to post about this this week. is like, I think we’ll de center the 9 to five from our actual identity. If you look at traditionally how Americans talk to each other, when we meet each other, the second or a third question that we ask each other is what do you do for a living? You know, and so that was something that I always grapple with when I was still in 9 to 5 or and being a content creator. it’s like people were like, yeah, yeah, but like what do you do for work work? And then be like, okay, I do this. And they’re like, yeah, okay, like I understand. And it’s like, no, that’s just like a third of what I’m doing all day. It doesn’t even represent who I am. So that will be more and more a thing with Gen Z. So what I’m saying is like the idea that we have of work life balance today is awesome. It’s like, you know, you can work at 10 a.m. instead of 9 a.m. because you have a dentist appointment. Great Stepping stone. I think that that’s awesome. And Gen Z will come in and really show like, you know, we talked a little bit about like quiet quitting and stuff like that. It’s like, no, I here, I’m here to do my job responsibilities. if we want to do anything more than our job responsibilities that’s increases our pay because that’s how it makes sense. And then if not like I want this space to be able to, you know, create side hustles for myself or do passion projects on my own. I want that space to be able to do that. And so that’s where we’re getting all these like quiet quitting and always different crazy trends that are going on right now. But anti-work is basically like a riff off of there’s r/antiwork, which is like a Reddit community. It’s crazy. If you’ve ever, I definitely like when you’re bored, like go in there. It’s just nightmare work stories and just crazy stuff that goes on and like I used to work in retail and a lot of them are like retail focused and just the whole gamut. So it’s like that plus the whole millennial term girl boss, which was like the whole concept of climbing the corporate ladder. So it’s kind of the balance of the two. Um but at the end of the day, I’m just teaching people to be more discerning like, hey, what do you want to do from nine to five? What do you want to do throughout the day? Um, what are you interested in? Are you getting full ROI? And ROI means return on investment. Like are you getting a full return on investment on what you’re doing? Um are you fulfilled? If not, how can you create that for yourself? Stuff like that.
Guest 1: And just to kind of piggy back off of what both you and Scott just said, Scott made a comment that where he said, um that Gen Z is a little more skeptical. And I think that is so spot on especially with everything that you talk about because you guys are skeptical and you know, and I’m a millennial as well. So you guys are skeptical and that you’re like, well, wait a minute, working 4,000 hours a week is like not fun. Zero out of five stars, don’t want to continue doing that. How do I, how do I not do that but still live a life that I want to live? And I think you guys are balancing that so perfectly. Um so I love the whole anti-work girl boss thing, the whole quiet quitting, like let’s just, you know, do the work we were paid for and still be allowed to live our life as humans. So I love all of that, but I do have another question for you, um, which is I feel like right now if you’re somebody who wants to rely on a 9 to five, um, you know, going into tech is looked at as super sexy because there’s all these different perks that you get, but also it’s really tumultuous, becoming an entrepreneur and a content creator is really sexy because you get to work for yourself and do things that you’re passionate about, but both of those things are also like really volatile um industries. So, how like what would you recommend to someone who, you know, was interested in going and pursuing the life of their dreams, doing the the quiet quitting, um, working but also following their passion. Like, what would you say because both of those things are hard.
Guest 2: It’s all hard and yeah, to be totally transparent, Amanda, because that’s so true. It’s like I don’t want to sit up on here and like sell this dream of like, oh, you just get to do this thing and like choose it and it happens for you. Like, um it takes some it takes some work, it takes some focus and it takes trial and error and it’s also okay to fail sometimes and and you know, and that’s that’s how it is. So, at Antiwork Girlboss like we really preach this idea of a lazy girl job. And so what I mean by that is it’s safe, it’s equitable, it pays your bills, you can there’s room for work life balance. You have a great, you know, you have a great transparent and honest relationship with your boss so you can, you know, articulate clear boundaries back and forth to each other. So I’m still on the team, you know, tech jobs will fulfill that. I know that obviously the tech industry has gone through quite the gamut in the last year. so, it maybe it be a little bit harder to find jobs like that, but for me, I always preach like, hey, there’s something in the tech industry that you can do because there’s people that you know, are in like literally unsafe jobs trying to make things work or hustling in a way that just isn’t safe for women, especially. Um, so that’s something that I really try to make cool is like, what’s wrong with like making 75k as a marketing associate and then the extra time that you do have just figuring it out. I mean that’s that’s literally how I figured it out, you know, so I’m just like, it doesn’t sound as sexy, right? It’s not that cool yet because it’s like you’re kind of spread thin and you’re doing all these things, but like why can’t we normalize a nine to five that pays your bills and is, you know, super sot, it’s kind of like that soft life and stuff like that. like there’s something really sexy to that. And like when you become self-employed, you have to wait two years anyways to buy a house traditionally because you have to have that average and stuff like that. So when you’re thinking about the other stepping stones to adulthood, it’s like, you know, it, it it could make sense to say in a salary job. So for me, I mean, I always preach that to my community. I don’t expect everyone to like come into this like content creation space with me. It’s um, not ideal for everyone and it’s actually like not as glamorous as it seems all the time and you understand that very, very hard. Um but I hope that that like answers your question in like a fair practical way, practical way because that’s what I really try to maintain at an antiwork goal boss like I’m not here to like sell sell a story.
Guest 1: I love that. And actually, you know what? I probably jumped the gun. I should ask you. Can you define for everyone what quiet quitting is?
Guest 2: Okay, well like the definition of it is like you you don’t go above and beyond anymore at your job. So typically obviously like what we do at corporate jobs is like we’re promised, you know, you go above and beyond, you do the extra work, you do all of that and one day you will get the promotion, one day you will get the raise and stuff like that. That’s one way, right? Like I’m not saying that that’s like wrong, but really what Gen Z coined is this term of like, no, I’m I’m saying discerning in what I’m doing. Like you hired me to do X, Y and Z, I’m going to do that and then the rest of the time I’m either, you know, making a family or, you know, making a side hustle or something like that, right? Like there’s more of that creation and that multi facet thing that we were talking about earlier. So that’s really what it is. And so quiet quitting as a whole, I don’t really put my stamp of approval on because it’s interpreted in many different ways. Um, as, you know, as content is, so it’s not something that I’m necessarily like, hey kids, go out there and quiet quit. I just mean like, hey, figure out what you want to do outside of work too if like work’s not fulfilling for you. I’ve also made content in the past before where I’m like, why are we putting so much on our, so much weight on our jobs anyways to make us happy. Like it’s kind of not really what it’s there for. Like it’s there for the transaction of your work and your pay. Of course, like having nice co-workers, of course, you know, having someone of a fulfilling intellectual job is like super awesome, but like what just happened to I don’t know, just just facing it, you know, actually like viewing this at face value and just being like this is the job and it’s not here to like fill my cup up to the fullest. That’s like my job outside of work and stuff like that. And so that’s where I try to stay practical with it. But while you’re quitting is just super interesting for Gen Z because we’ve we’ve entered the workforce at a difficult time. So I entered the workforce at 2019, that’s when I graduated college so that summer, we were still going into the office because it was before the whole, you know, go home kind of thing. So I remember like going into the office and like putting my outfit on and being like, oh I’m doing this for the next 40 years or whatever. Um and then, you know, March 2020 happened and there was no raises, there was layoffs and stuff like that. So we’ve had quite a while wild ride and so I think Gen Z is really saying uh I don’t know, seeing observant of that and trying to be safe with with the time that we’re giving and and what the actual payment back is. I think millennials like you all too, like the 2008 recession was kind of your your version of that and so I think that there was that kind of coming of age and you know, that almost uproar of like, hey, this is what we want corporations that really started the stepping stone for Gen Z. So it’s cycles, it happens.
Scott: Let’s uh I’m a CEO. let’s pretend that I’m 30 years older and and we’ll add the adjective Crusty to my um uh my demeanor here. I’m I’m not familiar with the term quiet quitting and I learned that Gabrielle is quiet quitting on our company. What does that mean? Does that mean like she’s going to do a bad job? Does that mean that she’s going to, you know, step, skip out? Does that mean that once she finishes the assignment that I give her, she’s going to step, start working on her side blog during work hours. Like how should I understand this as a skeptical um, you know, Gen X or or you know that Crusty yet, baby boomer. They’re not crusty either. Sorry. but but just tell tell me how like someone who’s maybe not as in the know with this should should interpret it maybe on a little bit of a different level.
Guest 2: Is Crusty your first name or is that just like a nickname?
Scott: My brother’s name is actually rusty. uh but yeah, not yet.
Guest 2: So funny. Um okay, so my interpretation of it is if I were, you know, if say I was your assistant and I’m prepping you on on the meeting that’s going on, I would be like, hey, so Gabrielle is doing her tasks and she’s doing them well. She’s staying active at work. She’s not not showing up to work right? Like she’s there, but she doesn’t seem motivated to do extra stuff. She’s not really checking in with her manager for extra work. Um it doesn’t really seem like there’s a lot of co-collaboration going on, but she’s get she’s doing her work and she’s getting the job done.
Scott: Okay, fair enough. Do you think this is a power dynamic shift between um companies and employees over the last couple of years and that it may be reversing or do you think that this is uh here to stay?
Guest 2: Such a good question. I think about this every day. I literally think about this every day because it like hunts me. I’m like, cause my thing is like what’s what’s respectful and what’s fair? What’s responsible, right? Like Gen Z has a lot of leverage to come in and be like, you laid off everyone so I’m gonna sit here and do nothing like what are you gonna do about it? Right? like there’s tons of leverage for that but that’s not responsible, that’s not efficient, that’s not helpful, that’s not anything. So I always think about that with that lens as well if like what’s the end goal, like what’s the end goal of quiet quitting? like how is it actually going to affect us in the future? What started quiet quitting, you know, and we we’ve talked about it a lot. It’s like it’s the it’s the economy and like what happened and what Gen Z really values. I think workplaces also, I mean like the great resignation happened and so I think that that was a huge shift for workplaces as a whole and employers. I work with a lot of people who are trying to get into the tech industry or have just got laid off from a job or whatever, and there’s companies that are just shutting computers off. Like I’m sure you’ve just seen news like that where they’re just they’re shutting the computer off and you actually don’t even know that you got laid off until 8 am that day. So I don’t know, like we’re seeing a lot of retaliation on both sides. um I wish I had a magic wand to like help everyone at the same time, but again, it’s it’s such a loaded question but it it’s it’s a question that needs to be talked about more for sure because I think especially me and other creators in my place like there’s a lot of people that look up to us and I I try to be really conscious of what I’m saying because especially on TikTok, there’s some young, young kids and I don’t want to create this whole like, oh Gabrielle Judge said that I could just close my laptop kind of thing like that’s not what I want to do, but I also want to teach kids of like, stay discerning to what you want to do and and be really clear about your work boundaries because it’s open now like we we can start doing that.
Guest 1: I love all of that advice. um and I have to say that you made a comment that Gen Z was really interested in quiet quitting and I feel like I have to speak on behalf of all millennials that we are interested in following your guidance here because you are on to something I think. But I have to ask like how does one um set those boundaries appropriately within workplaces that might not be as forward thinking.
Guest 2: I think about that a ton. So I always am really careful too when I make content, I can really only speak to the tech industry when it comes to professional stuff because that’s what I’ve been in since 2019. I have a computer information systems degree and that’s what I went to school for. Um, prior to that, I mean I was in the restaurant industry and I’ve done tons and tons of customer service jobs, but it was a different lens. It was a younger me. So it’s hard for me to give advice on something that I don’t know. So that’s something that a lot of times like I do get comments sometimes where it’s like, well, not everyone, you know, works in the tech industry and like absolutely super fair and never going to delete that comment and we’re going to, you know, make them feel bad for that. like absolutely, that’s such an important thing. I mean one thing that I do is like I I teach people how to use ChatGBT and other free tools to like leave their job for a better job and so that’s that’s a huge solution that I try to do with people of like, how can we practically get you out of that job and that situation if there’s like no way to negotiate these things that you want, how can we get you out of that job. I’m actually like with, you know, our our offering of being able to quit jobs with AI, I’m actually doing a lot of research with people who work in other areas of STEM. So like science, technology, engineering and mathematics for people who don’t know what the acronym is. And I’m working a lot with like medical people right now because I don’t understand that world at all, but I want something for them because I feel like there’s a lack of career guidance in that industry as a whole. It’s very educational and it’s very like scholarly and I think that there’s a lot of like career gaps in that. Um, and so I’m working with like a small group of people in the medical field right now too because I’m trying to roll out like more better messaging for people beyond the tech industry because again like we don’t like rule the world.
Guest 1: No, absolutely.
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Guest 1: Um okay, and then I want to ask you a question about chat GPT since you just brought that up. So, you’ve done some really, really interesting things with chat GPT and maybe potentially some life-changing things for people, right? So can you walk us through how you’ve leverage the tool to be able to help people with their job hunt and and other things?
Guest 2: Yeah, everyone hates getting a new job. Everyone hates interviewing for a new job. Everyone hates that horrible, horrible position you’re in where like you are fully committed to a job. You are working 50 to 60 hours a week and you have like zero time to look for another job because everyone knows that that is like a whole part-time job in itself. you know, and like that’s a whole thing.
Guest 1: Yes.
Guest 2: So I’ve been thinking about that a lot last year. Basically, when I first got started as a content creator, I did one to one like career coaching. so I helped people break into the tech industry that have, you know, not as traditional backgrounds. So when I need traditional backgrounds like they don’t have a four year technical degree and they’re not like fresh out of college, you know. So these are like people that are doing career switches or you know, they have a background in something else and they’re trying to leverage that in, stuff like that. And I really burnt out really quick and I was like, how can I find a way to like serve a ton of people at once? So I’m not just spending my time on these one-on-one things and how can I make a really affordable offering for everyone? Um so that’s where, you know, Chat GPT rolled out what end of last year or early this year? Yeah, end of last year. And so New Year’s Eve, I spent the entire week of the New Year just learning it and writing this program because I was just like, we’re doing this. Like I finally found a way that we can like leverage this and do it. So to really like talk about what it is, I mean, it’s for every step in the process, right? So it’s like resume creation, LinkedIn profile optimization, like all the discoverable pieces, right? of of actually applying for a job. Typically those things take hundreds if not thousands of dollars if you’re in the tech industry to do. Like that’s such an archaic thing of like, literally when I first got into the tech industry, I think I spent like $600 on two resumes, like that was such a thing. And I was like, this is ridiculous. Like with this program, like you can do it on your own and you can do it on an unlimited amount of ways and you don’t have to sit there and like go back and forth via email with an agency. like you can empower yourselves and like make all these tweaks. So with ChatGBT like you can write your own resume, you can also like list out your accomplishments and really tailor your resume for each job posting because that’s the thing too that I always preach with my community is like, you didn’t get any callbacks this week and that makes a lot of sense, but also like what how many job applications that you do? Was it 10 or was it 100? Right? because that’s gonna change your outcome so drastically. And it’s just not, like, who’s gonna sit there and apply to 100 jobs a week? Like it’s just really crazy to do on your own. So I was like, cool, like here’s a tool that you can automate all of this for free by yourself. Like ChatGBT costs $0 to operate. at least I mean you can get the chatGBT plus but very accessible. Um and so I’m really just teaching people how to fish. I don’t want to I don’t want to roll out like an agency and like take hundreds of dollars from people and stuff like that. It’s just like here like this is one way that you can completely advocate for yourself and streamline the entire job application process.
Guest 1: I love that, especially since since when you are applying to like multiple jobs, you have to talor your resume so specifically, especially if it’s a few different jobs. Um so I love the idea of using technology like that to
Scott: Yeah, personalize.
Guest 1: Yeah.
Scott: I I I mean on this point though, like we we’re getting a thousand I posted a job, I got a thousand applicants, a thousand applicants for a job. And you know, to we to whittle that down like absolutely, and I’ll go one step further and say, like, yes, do this, customize the resume for the job. that’s fantastic advice, um which I’ve never really considered. Um, I guess I haven’t been on a job search in nine years um for myself. But second, put a cover letter and don’t use AI to write your cover letter, but use it to draft it or speed up that process of customizing it because when I get a thousand resumes, I’m I’m like or just there’s just a float in the pile, even if it’s a great resume, I don’t like what am I going to do with it? How do I filter these things very quickly? Right? I mean that’s a tremendous amount of work on my side to do that. And um these these tools are making it easier, easier than ever to just fling your hat in the ring and it’s I have to go through it in half a second because I have no choice. I can’t go through 1000 resumes in detail. Anyways, just an observation from my side, uh confirming your your biases here.
Guest 2: No, I love it. I’m glad that you’re on board.
Scott: So, awkward transition here, but I have some questions about um, uh, Tiking which uh you can tell I’m not very familiar with and don’t do a lot of. Um are you worried about the current climate and your business? I think that’s the way you reach most of your your followers with is with um Tik Tok. Are you worried about that getting shut down or what what are your thoughts on that or if you had to speculate on what the future of that platform is?
Guest 2: You know, not to be snarky, but I feel like we all forgot what Facebook did with Cambridge Analytica and I I just I my whole thing is like TikTok isn’t doing anything that American social media companies aren’t doing already. Um, and so not to get like wildly political. I I just um, I don’t agree with the cherry picking that’s happening. Uh, I do obviously, I’m very pro like things need to get figured out with technology. Like we need more representation in the government. We saw, you know, kind of that recently happening with the TikTok CEO and stuff like that. Um there needs to be more representation and like that’s something that I’m very vocal about as a whole specifically as a young voter of like, you know, like, of course I’m going to vote, of course, I’m educated and stuff like that and I want to stay in, you know, the whole the voting practice and making sure that I’m maintaining that every four years and even in like the local stuff. There’s no representation for social media and it just it scares the heck out of me personally. And so I’m I’m hopeful for the future. I I’m hopeful on humans. I’m hopeful in America. like whenever happens, I know that we can change and we can fix and we can we can grow and get better from. So for me, I’m not sitting here like white knuckling every day of like, oh is Tok going to be banned. Um there’s certain stuff too where like that Tok ban has nothing to do with Tik Tok as a whole and it’s more about like the VPN situation and and for anyone that doesn’t understand in technology like virtual private networks are some of them are yes obviously for like very scamy things or like to pretend that you’re something else and and those should be those should be regulated especially for um streaming platforms and stuff like that or actual businesses, like definitely not telling anyone to like pirate anything, but they’re also like helpful for personal security and stuff like that. like there’s some really ethical ways to use VPNs. so some of it just kind of like scared me in general. I I I didn’t love um seeing all of that. like to be very honest with everyone. I haven’t talked too much about the Tok ban, but overall, very, I’m very excited about America as a whole and I know that we’ll figure it out at the end of the day.
Guest 1: So let me ask you then, so what advice do you have for somebody who would want to become a content creator? because there’s also lots of really great stuff that comes along with it as well.
Guest 2: So being a content creator changed my life. The biggest thing that I say about it is you never know who’s watching your content. And so the craziest opportunities will happen that you can never imagine. Like I’ve done, I’ve been doing casting calls for reality shows for the last like two years and stuff like that. Like just wild stuff that you didn’t know that you could do. Um business relationships have happened like I’ve gotten freelancing jobs and brand deals and stuff like that, not even I haven’t done a resume or a job application in years. like it’s just from making content and stuff like that. If it’s something where you don’t want to make money off of it, you don’t want to be like super big, the amount of, just the way that you can cultivate a community and just the friends that you can make online is just so powerful as well. like there’s just such a community aspect to it as well. So my goal like my tips are, it’s really actually more of you getting in the way of yourself than anything. Um and no one has this like secret sauce and if they do say that they have a secret sauce for going viral, I’m sorry but they’re probably not right. It it’s probably just not, it’s not something that you can do like from step A to B to C that you can really do. So it’s kind of like a, it’s, it’s unique, it’s unique to you and it comes with trial and error. So the biggest one that I always get when people are like, oh I want to be a content creator but I don’t know what to do. Their biggest fear is like, well what if I make gross content? Like what if I’m what Gen Z calls cringe? like what if I’m cringy out there? What if I’m doing like gross stuff and then like my friend sees it or a co-worker sees it and stuff like that. I’m like, if it’s bad content and it’s not performing, well, no one’s seeing it. That’s kind of the great thing about it. You get to just move on, right? Um the second aspect to it is like if your friends or your coworkers or whatever see it, they saw it, you know, and like I just, you know, it just it’s a part of life and so for me like I notice it’s much more of us getting in the way of our own selves, but my most piratical advice is like be really kind to yourself, like you don’t have to have it all figured out. I don’t have it all figured out, Amanda. I don’t know if you really like to this but I’m sure there’s moments where you’re like I have no figured out.
Guest 1: You do not have figured out.
Guest 2: Exactly. There’s moments where you’re like, I don’t know and you wake up some days and you just want to like delete your app because you’re like, I don’t even know what this is today.
Guest 1: Yes.
Guest 2: It’s it’s just part of it and I would just say like create whatever lights you up. Um I make I used to make content just on my work from home job that was so weird. Um you know, I think corporate Natalie was like the biggest person that like made that popular and stuff, but before that it was so weird and like even my talent management when they first picked me up last year, they were like, your niche is just so new and different. like we don’t even know what to do with you. Um and so what I’m saying is like, if you love painting, there’s gonna be someone in there for painting. Like there’s just there’s so many communities and interests out there and I think that’s what’s why TikTok did so well is because it’s so interest based, it really cultivated that community for us. So just be authentic, do you? if you get in the way of yourself, that’s okay. like I said earlier, make a ton of content creator friends, DM people, be kind, um, you will attract the right people and the right support and you’ll figure it out eventually, I promise.
Guest 1: I love all those tips. I literally couldn’t have said them better myself. So, I thank you so much for sharing.
Guest 2: Thank you.
Scott: Gabriel is been a privilege to chat with you today and learn from your, you know, really um um uh thorough kind of grounding in what the future of of a career and what what that might look like for for Gen Zs uh and and other generations as well looks like. Where can people who are interested in learning more find out more about you and follow you?
Guest 2: Thank you so much for having me today. This was so exciting. Um I yeah, anytime that I can like be on a podcast and be able to talk about stuff, I I also appreciate how thoughtful you all were when like thinking about my brand and and what I do. I think it’s very easy to create this story of like I don’t want to work and I’m teaching kids not to work and so I really want to thank you for the open mindedness and being able to let me, you know, just chat about, you know, these trends and these theories that I have. So thank you so much for this space today. Um so my TikTok is at Gabrielle_judge so just Gabrielle Judge my name. Um my Instagram is anti-work Girlboss and so we have a lot of fun over there. Thank you so much for like I said just everything and very excited to just do the full-time content creation stuff this summer and see where it goes.
Scott: Awesome. Well, we really enjoyed this uh and we totally get it. This this whole show is about financial independence retired early, right? FIRE, right? So it’s it’s it’s it’s all under the same umbrella of goal here of of taking back control of your life. And one observation I’ll I’ll leave us with here is is the logical response to the apathy that I think that a lot of folks feel about their jobs in my opinion is protect that job. Do exactly what you said, good enough. Do a good job. Get your good performance reviews, get your raise, those kinds of things. But also move towards financial independence in some form or other, whatever that means to you, as rapidly as is reasonable for your situation and try to do it early in life because then you can live the remaining multiple decades hopefully on your terms and that means something different for everyone, but I think it’s all this kind of same fundamental concept that I think, you know, uh has been around for decades but has been slowly compounding and growing uh among the generations and Gen Z is uh embodying that even more than perhaps millennials, Gen Xs or baby boomers. Um and I wish you good luck on that journey.
Guest 2: Thank you. 9 to fives are sexy y’all. They can feel your investments, they can feel your side hustle, I promise.
Scott: All right Amanda, that was Gabrielle. What did you think?
Guest 1: Oh my gosh, I loved, loved, loved her. I want to be like her when I grow up. I think that all millennials, all ages have so much to learn from Gen Z and I think she represented them so well today.
Scott: Absolutely. I think everyone always underestimates the new generation. I remember that being the same case um when when millennials were in their 20s and and uh early 30s. Um and I think that there’s always this kind of dismissiveness, but you can never underestimate the the next generation. They’re always have superstars filled uh filled throughout and they’re always the future and the potential of of this country and it’s so wonderful to talk to somebody who’s really kind of at the forefront of thinking about uh independence and freedom and control over your personal finances uh in this space. I really also loved um a couple of the specific tips that she gave us today around like your resume, right? Again, I’m I’m struggling to kind of figure out what are the best ways to use AI in my world, but formatting resumes, um coming up with, you know, the early stages to a cover letter or something like that. Those are all great little little tips that I think she has there. Um thinking about your, you know, um your work and setting up your financial position so that it’s it’s strong um and and again, it’s not a process. No one waves a magic wand when it’s time to quit. It’s just a process that you build towards and you have to make that break point and I love the way that uh uh we were able to kind of dissect that and think about that position um for her when she left her full-time job.
Guest 1: Oh absolutely. I think that they are the epitome and they define working smarter not harder, right?
Scott: Absolutely. That’s that’s the name of the game. And, and you know, I I’ll say though that uh Gabrielle thinks that she quiet like she talks about quiet quitting a lot, but this is a lady who worked full-time job and then another full-time job, just like you by the way, um creating content on the side for years in a row, probably putting in 50, 60, 70, 80, 100 hour weeks when it’s all told between the two jobs, um prior to moving back to one job where she probably still works 60, 70 hours a week uh if I can tell anything about the way that she’s thought about all these different frameworks. So I love that it’s uh work smarter, not harder, but she does both, I would I would say and I think I think you I would probably put you in that category. Is that is that right?
Guest 1: I would say yes, but I think also it’s especially when you’re young, right? The working smarter might be like grinding for a couple years, but I know I don’t want to grind for 60 years and I think that um that’s really the conclusion that I came to in um, you know, the whole quiet quitting era. It’s not like go, you know, stop working tomorrow or don’t do a good job right now. It’s, you know, let’s do everything intentionally and um, have a goal at the end of the day.
Scott: Yeah, when I was in my first job, um, I was working at a Fortune 500 company, I gave it my all, I put everything I possibly could. And at the end of that year, I thought I was doing the same work as people that were 5, 10 years my senior. I got a 2% raise. And that I think like to me, that was when I quiet quit. That’s when I dived into the FIRE movement and all and and this kind of thing, like, why would I give my employer 100% of my effort when that was the reward that was given to me at the end of that. Like what’s the point? And I think that that Gen Z is just catching on of that faster um, than other generation. So I’m all for giving it your all in your work when that has the opportunity to be rewarded. And if it’s not, then you need to slowly or quickly redirect those efforts to something that can scale.
Guest 1: Right, absolutely. I think they do a great job of just being unapologetically themselves and questioning everything.
Scott: Awesome. Well, should we get out of here Amanda?
Guest 1: Yeah, let’s do it.
Scott: All right, from this episode of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast, I’m Scott Trench and she is Amanda Wolf from the She Wolf of Wall Street saying, see you later alligator.
Speaker 2: Bigger Pockets Money was created by Mindy Jensen and Scott Trench, produced by Kaelin Bennett, editing by Exodus Media, copywriting by Nate Weintraub. Lastly, a big thank you to the Bigger Pockets team for making this show possible.
