Scott Trench: Nic Morales is actually a team member at BiggerPockets, one of the great people I worked with at BiggerPockets, in Mike Calvey. Shout out, Mike, hope you’re doing well. Nic has built a $50 million real estate portfolio by age 29, and he’s got a property management business, and he still sells products for BiggerPockets on behalf of BiggerPockets. And I think those headline numbers stand out because they’re so big and they’re so impressive on the surface. But underlying that, when we unpack Nic’s story, you’re going to see that it’s not nearly as glamorous as that headline suggests, and that there’s a real, real cost and real battle scars that Nic has that he’s gone through to get to this point. I think you’re going to find the story fascinating. I think you’re going to find this very real. A lot of people who have big portfolios or shout big numbers like that on Instagram and social media leave out the real detail underneath that portfolio. And I think Nic is going to share that here. And I think that despite his large numbers, some of you are going to really, really find that awesome and a huge achievement. And it is a big achievement. And some of you are going to decide, you know, I don’t think that was worth it. That’s not the kind of cost I’d want to pay for this.
Mindy Jensen: Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to the BiggerPockets Money Podcast. My name is Mindy Jensen. And with me as always is my real deal co-host, Scott Trench.
Scott Trench: I’m so glad you raised that topic. We are so excited to be joined by Nic Morales today and hear about his incredible story as a whirlwind real estate professional, like the guy that you’d expect to come out of a world of BiggerPockets, with bigger pockets, tens of millions of dollars in real estate, three businesses in real estate. And yet it’s not as glamorous as those headlines might suggest. And he’s really in the thick of it, working towards the promised land over the next few years. So Nic, welcome to the BiggerPockets Money Podcast. Super excited to chat with you.
Nic Morales: Thanks for having me on. Good to see everybody again. And thanks for being here, Nic.
Scott Trench: Before we get started, tell us about where you’re at right now and where you live and why you’re not where you live right now.
Nic Morales: I am a resident of Nevada, Reno, Nevada, where I grew up and moved back to after I left my job. But I’m currently right now in a manager’s unit on one of my buildings in Sumter, South Carolina, which is about the middle of the state, about 45 minutes from a bunch of my properties. So I kind of sit here, and I’m actually sleeping in a bunk bed that you see back there. That’s my residence Monday through Thursday. And then I will be going back to my apartment in Charleston Thursday evening through Sunday.
Mindy Jensen: Tell us how you got to this glamorous position in your life, living in a bunk bed.
Nic Morales: Long story short, I started buying property with no money, with OPM, other people’s money, and I brought the equity and the sweat. So obviously doing that, you got to be out here getting dirty and get into it. And so I find it a lot easier, just for me on a day-to-day basis, to be here where the assets are. And, you know, remote managing is extremely challenging. And so, you know, my staff, my employees, and my investors expect presence, and that’s part of why I’m here Monday through Thursday in the market. And I also get to enjoy it. It’s kind of like my peaceful Monday through Thursday. I get to work, zone in, and then go back to my fun lifestyle on the weekends. But Monday through Thursday it’s out here in the market.
Mindy Jensen: Are you flying cross-country every week?
Nic Morales: I used to do that every week, and that took a lot. It was like Reno to Vegas, and then Vegas to Reno, and then Vegas to Reno to Charlotte. And then I would drive. Charlotte is obviously in North Carolina, but it sits about an hour and a half above Columbia, South Carolina, and there’s the best airport to get into. I used to fly from Vegas there, stay in Columbia, and a couple of my buildings there I’d sleep on an air mattress. And then I’d fly back to the West Coast. I would stay for a week or two and then go back, stay for a week and come back. But now I have a place in Charleston that I stay pretty much four to five months of the year, and then I kind of go back and forth to the West Coast. So not weekly now, thankfully, but weekly I am driving at least to Sumter in the middle of the market and then driving home on the weekend, or going back to the West Coast.
Mindy Jensen: So you said something that gave me the heebie-jeebies. You said you bought real estate with no money of your own, you were using other people’s money. This is something that when I was the community manager for BiggerPockets, I would encourage people not to do. How old were you when you first started buying real estate? Because I think that’s really important to your story.
Nic Morales: Yeah, I had just turned 24.
Mindy Jensen: Okay, so back then you knew everything and it was okay to buy real estate with other people’s money. How do you convince somebody when you’re 24 years old to give you money?
Nic Morales: Well, it’s not giving money, right? It’s a loan. It’s an important distinction. I think a lot of people use other people’s money and they say, “I gave you money,” and you just went and dipped. That’s not the truth, right? As an older real estate investor now, everything is a tool in the tool belt. And one of the tools in the tool belt is using capital and leveraging capital around you to either buy an asset. So my first flip, I had a friend that knew somebody that was lending cash at a hard money rate, 10% and 2 points. And I did the math and said, okay, this makes sense. And put him in first position on the asset and closed on it. And then had money for the construction all built into that, like a normal bridge loan that you would do at a normal lender that’s in the BiggerPockets sphere. But it was just going direct to the source rather than having to deal with draws and all that stuff that comes with typically the larger soft, institutional hard money lenders, like Kiavi, CV3, you know, all those guys.
Mindy Jensen: Okay, so you get your first property, it’s a flip, you have a hard money loan for a percentage of the purchase price. Was it 100% of the purchase price, or purchase price plus rehab costs?
Nic Morales: Yeah, it was 100% of the purchase price and rehab costs. I think it was $130,000. I’ll never forget it. It was like one of those military split homes where, you know, it had two units, and they kind of split a wall that was a cinder block wall. It was two-bedroom, one-bath. I think all in I was like $130,000 on it, and it took me seven months to do the construction and everything. It was 1,000 square feet. I did a terrible job on my first one. My dad went out there, was like, “What are you doing? This is so bad.” This contractor was screwing me over, and I didn’t know what I was doing on my first one, but I fixed it all. We got it all fixed, and I was able to sell it. I think I made $80,000 profit on that first one.
Mindy Jensen: Wow.
Evan Lawler: That is like a grand slam home run for your first deal.
Mindy Jensen: The whole doing-it-all-wrong thing, that’s par for the course for a first deal.
Nic Morales: When you buy a deal right, that’s been my biggest thing that I’ve tried to do the best of in my career: buy low, sell high, right? So if you’re buying very low and you’re buying deep discounted deals, it allows room for mistakes. I think a lot of times people get a little bit too overzealous or aggressive and they try to push the needle. And when margin’s too thin, it’s almost not worth it. You typically never hear of anybody going into a deal where they’re going to make $10,000 and they actually make $10,000, because there’s always going to be a problem. There’s always going to be an overage. There’s always going to be a delay. I’ve never done a deal where it goes right, and that’s why my hair is thinning and receding. So I’m retreating and receding, as they say.
Scott Trench: So let’s go a step back here. You bought this deal which year?
Nic Morales: It was 2019, right before COVID. It was my first flip that I was doing.
Scott Trench: And what were you doing for work, if anything, in addition to that deal?
Nic Morales: I wasn’t doing anything. I quit my job in the NFL. I moved home. I had a job working in the NFL for a while.
Scott Trench: As a defensive tackle?
Nic Morales: Offensive line. But yeah, no. I sold tickets. So I sold for the Dolphins, the Raiders, and the Niners. As I kind of progressed to the Raiders and the Niners, I was selling more premium and to CEOs, which kind of led to the reason why I left and started my company, or started wholesaling and buying property. I did my first deal up in Reno. I was doing some wholesales at the time, so I was making some money there, and I figured it was time. I did, I think, four or five wholesales at the time within a four- or five-month period. And I was like, okay, maybe I feel comfortable, like this is a really good deal, let’s try to flip this time rather than just wholesaling. I really wanted to learn. I was very blessed to be able to start at the very bottom and then work my way through the different levels of doing stuff, which allowed me to still make cash flow with some of these other things that I was doing as I scaled into the next, I guess, thing that you could do within real estate. Not to say one is better than the other, they all have pros and cons.
Scott Trench: I normally like to hear a progression from one step to the next, but I don’t think that’s the right way to present what’s happened for you in your situation here. So I’d like to skip to the headline as I understand it and then get the general arc of how your business interests today developed. So what I understand your business to be is you own $50 million in real estate. Now, you don’t own $50 million in real estate, your firm does, and you’ve raised that capital in various forms using other people’s money and debt to purchase that. And so there’s that piece of the business, and you get a carried interest stake in that to some degree, right? Am I correct on that first observation at a high level?
Nic Morales: Yeah.
Scott Trench: The second business that you have is a property management firm, which manages these assets and some additional assets as well, including in the short-term rental space. Is that right?
Nic Morales: Yeah. So the management company, predominantly on the long-term rental side, only manages my assets and my company’s assets on that allotment of units. On the short-term rental side, we manage another about 50 to 60-some short-term rentals on that side.
Scott Trench: And where are those units located? Are these all in one geography or are they in disparate geographies?
Nic Morales: Predominantly they’re going to be up in Reno and Tahoe area. So there alone I manage roughly about 40 or so short-term rentals up in the Reno and Tahoe Basin.
Scott Trench: Got it. Okay.
Scott Trench: Now, there’s one more business, I believe, here as well, which is the management of your assets under management.
Nic Morales: That would be all-encompassing underneath the management brand. It’s all underneath one thing. The management company does the full asset management, property management, short-term rental management. And then you kind of have the holding companies that own the assets themselves.
Speaker 1: Of buying one giant 30-year policy you’ll overpay for, you stack a few, say a 10-year, a 20-year, and a 30-year layer, so your total coverage steps down as your actual obligations step down.
Scott Trench: You only pay for what you actually need when you need it. You have maintained some semblance of professional salesmanship. You’ve sold stuff for other companies during this journey, including starting around last year selling for BiggerPockets, right? And some of the advertising inventory we have on BiggerPockets. Is that correct?
Nic Morales: Yeah. I mean, BiggerPockets has been about two and a half years that I’ve been there in that capacity, continuing to help. But before that, I quit my job full-time after I left the NFL and was just wholesaling and doing deals and scaling my portfolio. And then the opportunity came to come back to work for BiggerPockets, while still scaling my portfolio, and it just was a seamless fit with what I was already doing.
Scott Trench: This is an enormous position, right? We have three full-time jobs in the real estate asset management space, the property management business, and as a sales professional. How do you think about your net worth? Are you able to even estimate it at this point in time, because of the interrelationship it has with the real estate equity, which is probably hard to market at this point?
Nic Morales: The real estate equity I can market off of, because I know values of the assets in the areas, and the cap rates and the NOIs that are on those assets upon stabilization, or at the current refis that I’ve gotten them at. So I have an idea of what my net worth is in that area. Our net worth is roughly around $5.5 million in equity in assets, based off of my splits across that $50 million portfolio. So, because we have debt around 65% of the asset base, 60 to 66%, it’s around that area. I’ve got to look at the actual REO schedule, but my equity is roughly in that area. But although you cannot spend equity, this is why I have had multiple different things to continue to help me propel by acquiring more assets. My net worth is predominantly based off of the assets themselves. As far as cash assets and those things, yeah, I’ve pretty much thrown every dollar I have into the management arm, the employees, the staff, the trucks, the facilities, to be able to control and scale my assets on a larger basis.
Scott Trench: I think this is going to be fascinating for a lot of people, because in your position, that $5.5, $6 million of equity, of net worth, if you were to liquidate the portfolio today, you would not clear that, right? Net of fees and transaction costs for the portfolio, most likely.
Nic Morales: Yeah. Maybe I’ll walk away with like $3 to $4 million. Yeah.
Scott Trench: And there’s a preferred return, I assume, for many of your investors that you must clear as well over the next couple of years.
Nic Morales: No, the way we stack our assets is different. So I’m a fee-less platform, so I don’t charge asset management, acquisitions, any of that stuff. We just charge the normal property management fees, which is why I have a 50/50 split across all my deals with my LPs. They also traditionally are getting their capital back within 12 to 18 months after we’ve stabilized the assets. So their preferred return has already been given to them. So at that point it’s just a straight 50/50 split once stabilized, which is why I’ve had to keep on jobs like BiggerPockets, and obviously BiggerPockets just made a lot of sense for me, to get to the place where my equity was starting to kick in and my sweat was trying to build off of that at that point. So I have one portfolio right now of roughly about $20 million worth of real estate that is currently fully performing. And the other $30 million is in process of some stages of renovation or stabilized, but now looking for another loan. So we’re kind of cycling through that next asset group right now.
Scott Trench: So what I love about your situation is, this is real. This is real real estate investing. This is the craziness of the partnerships and how this all… there’s real money to be made here, real risk, and real opportunity to make a lot more over the next couple of years with your portfolio if things go well and you’re able to exit these. Now, on the property management side of the business, would you mind sharing the high level there? What is the total revenue of the property management business?
Nic Morales: Right now, I think we’ll gross close to over a million this year in total gross receipts. Some of that includes, you know, supplies and stuff that’s billed back, right? But I would say as far as the short-term rental side alone, we’re close to roughly around $30,000 a month we’re getting close to on the short-term rental business. The long-term rental business is starting to pick up because of the scaling of the assets that are in construction, right? I don’t charge the property management fee until the asset gets in service. So once the asset gets in service — right now we have about 180 units that are in some sort of stage of construction or leasing — once those kick in, we should be roughly around similar to what we’re pulling in on the short-term rental side. So the short-term rental business has really carried my platform to be able to have my long-tail assets, like my big renovations, catch up for those fees to start kicking in.
Scott Trench: What is the net for this property management business?
Nic Morales: We’re around anywhere between $7,000 to $12,000 a month. It just depends on if I buy something extra on that asset. I personally take no salary from the management company, and neither do any of my partners. I purely use it as a way to hire more talent, bring on more employees, all that stuff, to continue to manage the assets. But for a long time it was running negative — for three or four years it was a negative loss.
Scott Trench: So that’s remarkable, right? I mean, this is a property management business with dozens of units there. You’re saying it was negative for many years, and only recently has it broken positive, and it’s split with partners.
Nic Morales: Well, I own 90% of that, of the management business, so we don’t split any of the proceeds on that management business. We only split the proceeds of the assets themselves.
Scott Trench: I bet you have a lot of credit card points.
Nic Morales: Let’s just say I fly for free as of right now.
Scott Trench: Yeah, go into massive debt and you’ll fly for free.
Nic Morales: Yeah, it’s great. You’ll enjoy it.
Scott Trench: Well, I thought your story was so interesting because you’ve got all of these things going on here. And again, they’re big numbers. You’re running real businesses. They’re not huge businesses yet, but this is not a small business.
Nic Morales: Yeah, I mean, on the rent side, just to give you the scale, by the time we’re done with all the assets that I currently have under management and they’re fully operational, it’ll be 320-something units, and we’ll be roughly around probably $450,000 a month in gross receipts on the rent. So, you know, you’re talking about a $5 million business on the rent side. You have costs, and we typically run about 35 to 40% on our operating expenses because we do have the management company that has in-house management, in-house maintenance. We do everything in-house. So we’re able to artificially keep my stuff low, which is why it’s taken me so long to become profitable on the management side. The goal of the management business is not to become profitable. It was just a way for me to control the management of my assets, but I had to continue to invest considerably, which is why I’ve worked multiple jobs. I afford my salary as well.
Scott Trench: So can we get a picture of the journey to get here now that we’ve kind of got the end state? Thank you for this, this is really helpful. So give us the overview, not every deal piece by piece.
Nic Morales: Full transparency, I don’t mean to cut you off, but full transparency: on my first portfolio, of that first $15 to $18 million of assets, we net as partners about $40,000 a quarter. I currently have a higher split than them, I’m at, partly because I just run the majority of the company, but it’s not a crazy amount. We actually equally split the proceeds in an LLC. We have a holding corporation. Everything rolls up. They’re all different SPVs with their own partnerships, and everything rolls up into our holding corp or into our partners. We control the tax stuff and all that, but we’re about $40,000 a quarter that we are netting on that. That’s my original portfolio that I started with back in 2019 and started stacking my first couple assets in. So, you know, roughly make about $3,000 to $4,000 a month for years of work, right? It’s not very sexy at all. But the next portfolio should double that, and that should be a place where now you have more of a livable wage and it makes sense. But I’m happy to go into the story arc of how that worked. That gives you kind of an idea of where we’re at there.
Scott Trench: Let’s do it.
Nic Morales: It’s hard because it’s been so long since I left. But I can tell you that when I was in my early 20s, I left ASU and I was $90,000 in student loan debt with Discover loans. My family could not financially afford for me to go to Arizona State. I probably should not have gone there. I probably should have gone to community college or something. But I was hell-bent on going there. And I went there and, you know, I graduated early. I was not a great scholar in high school, I think I had like a 2.4. And in college I got, you know, a 3.4, and I graduated early. A lot of that came down to, because I was working multiple jobs and my mom was like, “Hey Nicholas, you’re going to have a $1,000-a-month payment.” But luckily my mom and my father could help me out enough to help me pay the interest payments, because that’s something I didn’t even know—you still have interest paying that’s recurring, but people don’t even think about it. They just defer it, you know? And so my parents paid that for me to keep my principal low. But I graduated with roughly $90-some thousand in student loan debt and a political science degree. Like, what am I going to do here? This is not going to go well for me. Like, a teacher salary is not going to work. We got to go do something quick. So my cousin at the time was working in the NFL. He got me a job working for the Dolphins with him there. He was a top seller, and I took a job making $13 an hour. And I saw how much my cousin was making. It was kind of like one of those Wolf of Wall Street scenes where it’s like, “You’re making how much?” And I was like, yeah, I’ll do whatever you need me to do to make $200,000, $300,000 a year. I don’t care, I’ll work all day. And so I moved there, was making like minimum wage selling upper-level tickets, did a ton of cold calls and learned how to sell and how to add value. And at the time, I didn’t really understand a lot of the stuff that I was doing. I was just brand new out of college and just kind of thrown into a sales role. I didn’t really understand all that, I really just—that’s all I did. I worked all day and was selling upper-level tickets, and the Raiders were moving their team to Vegas. And I got a call from Mike Calvey, who was an old VP employee, he was my cousin’s boss. My cousin was the number one seller in the NFL at the time. And he was like, “Nick’s willing to leave, I know my cousin, Nick’s cousin’s not going to leave.” So he called me and said, “Would you like to come back to Vegas?” And I said, “Well, as a Nevadan, yeah, I would love that. That would be awesome. I could come back to my home state, open up the new stadium.” So I moved there, and instantly got a pay raise, and it was a good time. I learned how to sell more premium products. I was selling to, you know, the Wynns and the different groups that were out there buying the large boxes. And I sold $36 million in 18 months. I was the number one seller in the NFL at the time. I sold over 3,000 PSLs and took that job where I basically was able to pay off my student loans relatively quickly. Went from making no money to decent money in my early 20s. And around that time I started getting a feeling in my heart that there was just—my dad was a mechanic and had his own shop my entire life, blue collar, worked in his own shop as a general mechanic. One of the things that I always really liked about working with my dad was that he could see a vehicle, hear a vehicle, and know exactly what was wrong with it and say, “Okay, well that’s doing this, that means that’s wrong.” And it fascinated me when it came to business, because I felt like I was just a wheel in the business. I didn’t really get to understand everything else that was going on, I was just told to sell and that was my job, and that was fine. But I just kind of felt a little lost. I was starting to get a little, I was in my early 20s making good money, and I just decided, “Hey, why don’t I take another job for more money? It’ll probably make me happy.” And I did that, moved to San Francisco, and I knew the first day I walked in there I made a mistake. A week or two later, my cousin flew back out to see me in San Francisco from Miami, and I’ll never forget it. We were talking about wholesaling, and Max Maxwell was the big thing at the time, you know, that Facebook guy, the wholesaler. And my aunt was wholesaling in Houston. My 60-year-old aunt was doing Houston wholesaling and making good money, a couple hundred grand. I was like, “Okay, well, if she could do this, I should be able to do this.” And so I got a PropStream account at the time, and I was playing on it in San Francisco when I was living there. And I went down to San Diego, 4th of July of 2019, and my cousin and I were sitting there in Coronado Island.
Speaker 1: I said, “You know what?”
Nic Morales: “I’m just going to quit my job.” I can do this, why can’t I do this? These people that have no sales training can do this. There’s no reason why a person like me that has a bunch of sales training can’t find a way to get somebody to sell me their house or whatever, right, knowing nothing about real estate. So I went back to the office that next Monday, quit my job, packed up my little Z3 BMW, and drove back up to the mountains, grabbed my computer and got a CRM and a list, and started cold calling and shooting text messages.
Scott Trench: What year was that?
Nic Morales: It was 2019.
Speaker 1: 2019.
Nic Morales: Yeah. Made that transition and then started doing wholesaling and understanding about list stacking—buy this stuff from PropStream or go down to the city, get the code violations, do all that stuff, the water shutoffs. I found how to do all that stuff. And then I’d go to IDI, which I think was a Red Violet company. I’d go to them and buy the data direct from them rather than getting it from these other places, because I felt that sometimes that data wasn’t the best. So I went direct to those guys, developed a relationship with them, and I was stacking a bunch of lists, and I got my first house within like a week or so. I think it was a mobile home. I did a wholesale for about $27,000. And at that point I knew I was hooked. I was like, “Okay, well if I can do this, then—” and I got an assignment contract to Wedgewood at the time, which if you’re familiar with them, they’re a large institutional buyer. At that point I just started really working with a lot of other flippers in the area doing deals. And I was selling to these guys and wholesaling to them, and they were getting their loans from Civic at the time, before Civic sold and became New CB3 and all that stuff. And their banker called me and said, “Hey Nick, are you interested in finding deals in Las Vegas?” And I said, “Well sure, why not?” So I got on the phone with him, started talking. His name is Dave. He’s like, “Well, my other partner Dave, I’m the banker, and your other partner knows construction. Would you be interested in doing deals with us?” And I said, “Sure.” I flew down there in November, I think it was a Thursday. I took a flight and just flew down to Vegas from Reno. Met these guys at a coffee shop, and those guys are still today my principal partners, seven years later. So that’s how that started with my relationship with them. And then around March of 2020, we formulated our partnership right when COVID started, and we started together because they had the background of how to flip the properties and the construction. The other one—and I did my first flip, that was when I really screwed up. I did my first flip, and I didn’t really know what I was doing. They were kind of helping me through it while I was transitioning to becoming their partner. And the other one knew lending and kind of the financial markets and how to stack capital stacks and how to create these structures for us to raise capital. And started in March of 2020, COVID shut down everything, and we started just aggregating data. I was just working on my computer a bunch and trying to get all the data into one place and start shooting off marketing. And we just hit it right. I started doing marketing during that time period when everyone was freaking out, bought a bunch of property at a very low point, and we started just flipping a bunch of those. At that point we were doing probably about 30 wholesales and flips a year, probably about half and half for the next probably couple years. And then that kind of turned into us having an office where I had a bunch of employees doing cold calls and a lot of stuff in an office as an acquisition team. And then the market started to turn, and financially I was a little overstrapped on payroll and these other things, and people weren’t buying wholesales anymore, and the market got really challenging. So that was the first time that I had to let go my whole entire staff and downsize and remove myself from the office. And around that time, financially, we were still buying the good ones. We were selling the ones we didn’t really want. We bought the ones and we were doing BRRRRs, right—we were buying them, renovating them, and then flipping them into our portfolio. Money got tight, and I just decided, well, we need to finish these assets of the first bulk assets. So I shifted my virtual staff that was at the time doing all acquisition to doing asset management and having them do the rent collection and all that stuff. And I went back up to Reno and started swinging hammers for a year. I started working on job sites with my guys to finish the jobs with my partners, and while trying to still look for other deals. At the time, we owned some property in South Carolina, but South Carolina was still kind of like, “Hey, let’s just finish the stuff over here and get this stabilized, and then we’ll start our focus back on our other assets that we owned at that time in that market.” Got those done. It was a painful year and a half. I was on a lot of job sites doing stuff, and then right around when Mike Calvey called me to come work for BiggerPockets, at that time in November—at that point we were looking for other markets. We already kind of invested in the South. And the way we started doing that is we were looking at other areas that had similar census data to Reno, Nevada, where I’m from. There was a big gentrification and change that happened in Reno, similar to Denver. So how can we find markets that are like that but 15 years too soon, or 10 years too soon? How can we get in now where the rents are relatively low and can be increased and opportunity’s still high? We really landed on South Carolina, and it’s been a really good gold mine for us since then. So fast forward 2.5, maybe 3 years from then, we have bought another probably 300-and-something apartments and then another 10 buildings, or 9 buildings or so, and scaled out that whole operation with onsite team members, still with the back-end office that I built from the original. We have our 10 full-time Venezuelan staff that handle the rent collection, the evictions, the reporting to government municipalities, because we do have some PBV contracts and Section 8 contracts, all the way to the short-term rental team that does all the back-end stuff there and coordinates with my 2 maintenance men in the US that go around in our vans and trucks to handle any of the work orders or calls. We have a head of finance now, a director of community, and a head of construction that are all US-based, plus my 2 principal partners. So that’s the short abbreviated version of how we went from wholesaling to this. It’s been a gradual step up. It took me many, many years to get to the place where we started to acquire a lot of assets quickly. In the last 18 months, we’ve acquired 7 or 8 buildings. So it’s really started to speed up, but it took me 5 years of really trying to figure out how to do asset management and how to do it virtually with a staff overseas so we can really have a lot of scalability.
Scott Trench: Just to summarize what I’m hearing: we’ve had a wild ride over the course of your career in terms of sales gigs, putting it all on black in a new profession in wholesaling. We’ve had huge wins, we’ve had huge losses that have wiped out certain parts of your position or resulted in you having to shut down companies or lay off people. And where we’re at right now is $50 million in South Carolina, primarily real estate holdings in your company. You have a sprawling team with some onsite and some international to manage the assets, and you are physically onsite 4 or 5 days a week, most weeks of the year, to manage these assets and get them performing at this point. Is that right?
Nic Morales: Yeah, you hit the nail on the head. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So what’s next? What’s the end goal for all this?
Nic Morales: I feel like I won a gold medal, it’s just in the mail right now. I want to see it through. We finally got over that hump from the real estate investing standpoint where the hardest thing is scale, right? I think scale can be dangerous in a lot of ways if you don’t do it correctly. We’ve seen that happen with a lot of different operators that are out there, but it can also be very helpful, right, when the economies of other assets can help reduce your time in that day-in, day-out work. So I want to continue to grow the organization. It’s more about how do we build a company that can withstand the time and continue to grow a learning organization that will grow and buy more assets. And I think the greatest thing that I can do for my business now is be as little involved as possible from a day-to-day operational standpoint. If I can continue to step back, train good people, hire good people, and have good processes, I can build a very awesome platform that can scale continuously. So for me now, the goal is how do we continue to add on more assets, train and hire great people that want to be here, while also protecting the bottom-line assets that we have and not overleveraging because we want to get aggressive. So that’s kind of the next thing for me, is a continuation of what I’ve been doing for 7 years. The goal when I started with my partners 7 years ago, or 6 years ago in March of 2020, was to buy large multifamily. Maybe I’m not at 300-unit type buildings that we’re buying for most investors, but I still feel like we’re buying medium to large size multifamily. And now we’re here. So the goal now is how do we not screw that up and continue to provide good results for our investors and our partners and build a platform that can withstand the time? Because ultimately, I have long-range debt on all these assets, 30-year notes that are HUD financing. So I have good debt, and we’ve got to make sure we manage those assets correctly for the next 5, 10 years. So the fun is just beginning. For me, I finally have gotten to a place where I can sleep at night knowing that we’re going to be okay. It was a lot of weeks, a lot of years of working 2 jobs to make it work. It was painful. It was very hard.
Scott Trench: I’m fascinated to have you on the show here today, because I think that what you’re doing is not what people who listen to BiggerPockets Money want. On the BiggerPockets Real Estate podcast, I think there’s a lot of folks that are pursuing various versions of what you’re doing. But at BiggerPockets Money, I think it’s like, whoa, that sounds terrible. I think a lot of people are listening and seeing, and it sounds to me very stressful. It sounds like there’s huge operations right now that are not yet paying off in a way that is commensurate to the scale of the property management business. And everything is very illiquid at this point in time. There’s a huge potential payoff, but there’s no doubt in my mind you went through a real hell to get to this point here in 2026. And hopefully the next few years bring the returns and the rent growth and those types of things that, you know, the market should bear with lower supply coming online in the next few years. And that should kick in and stabilize things. But I can only imagine this has been a brutal period in your life here from a work-life balance perspective. Is that fair?
Nic Morales: I mean, brutal or not, a lot of times I would think there’s something wrong with me. Why would I want to do these things that worked, multiple jobs? But I don’t know, I think a lot of people that you look at that want to create something — for me, it was never about the money. If I wanted to make a lot of money, I could have just stayed in my job and probably could have made good money doing that, stayed in the NFL and did those things. For me, it was about creating something that was mine, that I created, right? And so this has just been an evolution of my creation and my partners’ creation and guidance. My partners have played a huge impact on allowing me to stay tough and stay kind of solidified and crystallized with the vision, right, and to make it through. Real estate is a get-rich-slow game. It does take time. It’s an investment that you cannot cheat, because it will come get you with debt or however you want to look at it. It just takes time. It’s a slow asset. So it’s been extremely challenging, but I look back on even the small amount of money I might be making on a monthly basis off of my current assets that I have — when you look at that, it took me three years to build something that I now have, a recurring income source. This has been happening for a couple years now, the income that’s coming my way. The biggest reason why I’ve probably taken more pain on than I could have, probably than I needed to, was because I was trying to scale, right? Like, I did not really need to grow even more. I didn’t maybe need to buy that extra truck or that extra van to get the maintenance guy going. I may not have needed to buy that new computer or get the new guys hired or a new person that was going to help us get there. But yeah, I would agree — I think for the average user that is looking to diversify and do those things, this is the extreme case of that, I would say.
Scott Trench: So Nic, it seems like this has been a real struggle. And again, it seems like you’re handling it admirably, in the sense that you’re on site in the maintenance room right now as part of your weekly routine here to make this work. And there is real promise that things could work out and the business could drive significant equity growth over the next few years, and the scale can come in the future. We’ve heard a lot about syndicators in general being in really a big pickle in today’s environment, and many of them have raised 10, 20, you know, 20 times as much as you have in terms of assets under management and equity raises. What I think is interesting about your situation is it seems like your physical presence on site and the ability to make day-to-day decisions is likely going to be enough — it seems like you think you’re going to see this through and get to a good, reasonably good outcome in your portfolio. But if the scale was 20 times as large, would it have been impossible? Would it have wrecked the business to some degree?
Nic Morales: Yeah. I mean, this is why we’ve grown very methodically. I could have grown a lot faster, a lot sooner. The capital’s not been a problem for me to raise. We have plenty of money that’s there for us to go buy a lot more assets. I think the hardest thing to do as an operator, at least for me, is to balance the scale with the velocity of scale — wanting to buy more deals and being aggressive because I want that, because I want to speed up the process, but also understanding that I need a good foundation to build off of. I think a lot of syndicators that go from 0 to, you know, 5,000 units relatively quickly, or 1,000 units relatively quickly, have not learned the lessons on how to truly operate the assets that are out there, right? They’re not as present on the properties. They’re not really truly operators. They don’t know what to do when something goes wrong, because they hire a property manager, they hire a construction manager. They’re not there, they’re not present. And I think this is part of the reason why I’ve tried to take my time and be involved in a lot of these things and scale out correctly — because I want to be here for the next 30 years. And my assets that I have stabilized have shown that when you’re buying assets for $30,000 to $40,000 a door and putting $20,000 to $30,000 into them, and then they revalue at $120,000 to $150,000 a door, you have massive equity gain. That does not happen if you’re not here, right? You have to be here and present to make it happen. And I think that’s what’s happened with a lot of these syndicators — they raise money when it’s very easy to do and very cheap, and they relied on a model where they hire a property manager and they’re just not there. And I think that’s what’s happened with a lot of these groups. So my advice to people that are investing is, you really got to take the time to look at, does the story make sense for the operator you’re working with? Have you seen a gradual buildup from where they were at before? And what’s happened when things have gone wrong? Because that’s the operator you need — because it’s always going to go wrong. The deal’s always going to not go right at some point. There’s going to be a problem. And if you don’t have an operator who really understands how to fix it or how to make it right, that’s where a lot of these deals are going bad. And a lot of them also bought on pontificated rents. I buy workforce-class housing that is based off of Section 8 and FMR from the federal government. A lot of my units and kind of that base rent — I’m not competing against an A-class or B-class asset, of which there are 100,000 out there right now, because everybody’s trying to rent their units that are A-class assets. So it’s just a different model. So I think that’s the biggest thing I would look at as a user and as a listener — if you are going to look at an operator, make sure you really take the time to get to know that. And sometimes it may be better working with someone who’s smaller, who has more of a slower growth, than a larger operation. There are great large operations that are out there, but they also have different incentives, especially fee-based incentives.
Mindy Jensen: So I have a question for you. You are buying these larger buildings, and there was a rate increase recently — well, not recently anymore, it was like in 2022 — that has caused a lot of operators to falter. How have you fared with the rate increase? And do you have any properties that you’re in danger of losing, or having to give back to the bank, or sell at a really low rate just to get out from under those?
Nic Morales: Yeah, luckily, I’m happy to share, my situation — but I am not in that situation. I got fixed-rate debt on a lot of my stuff back when I was doing it during COVID. During that time period, I didn’t have floating-rate debt or debt that only had a five-year balloon on it, so I was able to kind of avoid a lot of those issues. And a lot of the assets that I’ve bought in the last 18 months are predicated on rates that are current rates right now. So it hasn’t really affected me, but the majority of the operators that are in that position — it’s tough to see. But a lot of that stuff is typically in that A-class market, and it’s stuff where they were pontificating on rent growth rather than rent concessions. And it’s challenging for at least a lot of those units. In the workforce-class housing space, we have more people reaching out than we have units available. We can do a whole turn of an asset of 30 to 90 units in 12 months, plus lease-up, at a new rent that has a completely new value, as we’ve completely renovated the units. Because we’re taking old housing stock that is dated and bringing in new LVP, new flooring, new cabinets, new windows, new HVACs — and then we’re going out and renting that same unit that would’ve maybe been $600 in a one-bedroom for $900. So your theoretical jump is a lot less, and that’s currently where the market is at right now on a lot of these things, through Section 8 and platform. So they truly are affordable, which we also can use different tax strategies to remove our taxes in South Carolina and other states, as we’re offering truly affordable assets.
Mindy Jensen: So how did you get fixed-rate debt?
Nic Morales: So fixed-rate debt, you can go through agencies — Freddie, Fannie, HUD. It just depends on what kind of vehicle you’re looking for.
Scott Trench: What’s the term on these?
Nic Morales: So the term with agencies — like Freddie, Fannie — you’re typically looking at like a five-year balloon on those. But if you go to HUD, you can have a 35-year loan or a 30-year loan, with the whole time fixed at that 5.75% or 6% rate. You do have a 10-year prepayment penalty, but if you’re holding long, it doesn’t matter, because I’ve already gotten my value out — I’m buying low, refinancing at a new value rate at 65% to 70%, and I have fixed-rate debt for the next 30 years essentially, if I’m going HUD.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Scott Trench: So Mindy, that’s what you’re asking here — you think that a fixed-rate loan means a mortgage, right? A 30-year fixed-rate, low-interest-rate mortgage that you’d use to buy a house. That’s not the product Nic is using here. He’s using an agency loan, a government agency loan, but it’s got a five-year balloon on it.
Nic Morales: So with the agencies, it’s a five-year. But if you go HUD, which I do have multiple HUD loans, it’s a 30-year fixed-rate loan with no balloon. No balloon.
Mindy Jensen: Okay, that was my question — how did you get that? You went HUD. How do you get a HUD loan? These are five or more units, right?
Nic Morales: It depends on the originator, but I believe the majority of the HUD loans and agency loans have minimums on dollar amount — typically they’re going to want stuff that’s over $2 to $3 million on a loan amount. That’s kind of like the smallest for their small balance programs. But yeah, HUD has plenty of options. They’re non-recourse loans as well. They’re fully assumable if you wanted to sell them to somebody else. And those rates are anywhere between 5.75% to 6.5%, just depends on when you lock, right? And that’s current rates right now.
Mindy Jensen: Those are on units that are five or more units, right?
Nic Morales: These aren’t for four and under that qualify. On a normal fixed-rate loan, on like a normal one-to-four, you could get probably similar rates at a local bank. It just depends on your credit and the asset itself and all that stuff.
Mindy Jensen: Yeah. So, what I understand — and I am not in this space at all, I was very fortunate to lose money in syndications before everybody else did, and I got out of almost every syndication that I was in before all of these rate changes hit — but there’s a lot of syndicators, former syndicators, or syndicators who are trying desperately not to become former syndicators, that are losing their properties. Their properties are either going back to the bank, deed in lieu of foreclosure, and now the bank owns them, or they are having to sell at a deep discount. And I’m just wondering how you were able to get fixed-rate loans when they weren’t.
Nic Morales: Yeah, a lot of times when they go into an acquisition — I’ll make it very simple — sometimes the acquisition loans that they go into, they’re either using some kind of what’s called bridge-to-perm. So they’re using a short-term loan that could be two to four years. Their pro forma, their numbers, were based on them getting a higher rent amount to then get this new value to then get a new loan. Or they had fixed-rate debt, or maybe perm debt that was not fixed rate, excuse me, and it was either a floating floor — so they have a floating-rate loan or interest-only loan that’s floating based off of SOFR, and it can go up and down, right? So that’s the problem — a lot of these syndicators, in my opinion, and you know, Scott, you know a lot of them as well — I believe a lot of them had a constant rent increase built into these assets, and that there was going to be constant demand. And when that demand shrinks, they’re going to have to give more concessions and get more aggressive, which means their NOI is going to be worse, which means their end value’s worse, because it doesn’t cash flow anymore — which is why a lot of these users are getting their stuff taken back. The difference is, when I’m buying an asset, I’m buying it at a severely discounted rate anyway. I’m coming in and it’s underperforming, it’s not good, and we’re buying it on a fixed bridge loan for 18 to 24 months. And once I stabilize and I’ve done the renovation and the lease-up, I’m going back out and getting a fixed-rate loan at that time.
Scott Trench: I think a fixed-rate 30-year mortgage plus, dude, you taking the call on-site, right, from the slightly below-ground, hot-as-hell room — whatever that looks like here — on-site, doing the operations, is really the tell here, right? I think if we were having the same call with somebody who bought properties around the same time as you, and they’re in their air-conditioned office on the 8th floor of a building that’s not the one they bought — and especially if it’s not in the same city as the buildings they bought in — I think you just write it down to zero as an LP in a lot of cases. Like, I’m out. That’s a terrible sign for me. And I think that’s got to really rankle you pretty badly, if some of these guys are making way more money than you personally, and that is going to be a disaster.
Nic Morales: Sure. But the reality of it is, the reason why that is, Mindy, and the reason why it is, Scott, is because they make fees. They don’t care what they buy. They have no vested interest, a lot of them. They take their 1% fee on the acquisition. They buy a $5 million building, they just made $50,000. They asset manage it, so now they get another 2 to 3% a year on the asset management of the overall value of the rent. So the structure that they have is vastly different than the structure I have. I have a higher equity split. I have no fees. So I have a huge upside to see that the asset makes money. I’m also personally guaranteeing on the loans. So the structure is vastly different than a lot of these syndicators, who are raising capital and who are great capital raisers, but they’re not truly operators. They weren’t truly in the game long-term. They were, in my opinion, truly wanting to make fees. A lot of these groups, they can say they were making no money on the rents, but they’re also making money on the fees every single month, you know? So that’s why they’re making a bunch of money and driving a nice car, while I’m sitting here in 100-degree weather in the swamp trying to make the asset make money, because I make money on the end — which is why, from a capital standpoint, it’s been very easy for me to raise capital, because my LPs know that if they don’t make money, I don’t make money. I’m very aligned with them. I have every reason to want to make sure the asset makes money, which is why I spend my time out here. I think the biggest thing is that my platform is built for the next 30 years. A lot of these syndicators were built on raising as much capital as possible and executing it on assets, because that’s where they make their money.
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Scott Trench: In terms of the real estate — I basically did the exact opposite of you from a real estate investor’s perspective. Instead of going out and building a real estate empire, I worked my job at BiggerPockets and grew through the ranks there. And today I own 19 units, six of which are paid down, and the remaining 13 of which have low-interest leverage on them. Do you ever think, “Should I have taken that path instead of the scaling-with-tons-of-partnerships path”? Or how do you think about those dynamics? There’s the Chad Carson school, which I’m fully in — Chad Carson’s Small and Mighty. And then there’s the big boys’ game that you’re playing here, with lots of real estate partnerships and all that. What do you think?
Nic Morales: To answer your question and to the listeners, there’s no wrong answer. It’s all depending on what you want to do. And like you can build what I did. I’m not smart. I’m not that, I’m just hardworking. I think that’s about it. I show up every day and I do what I got to do to make it work. And I think that you can have a big platform. And someday my game will come and it’ll be there. Like I said, my, I won my gold medal. It’s just in the mail, you know, and I just gotta see it through. But I don’t think there’s a wrong or right answer. I think for me, I could sit here and look at a rearview mirror, but that game isn’t here in real estate. You know, you gotta continue. And like anything in investing, you could have put more money in Bitcoin and made $100 million. I mean, sure, of course. Like, wait, I know you don’t, you’re not a big fan of Bitcoin, but I mean, neither. But I mean, for everybody it’s a different route and you can do it however you want to do it as long as you stay consistent. And I think that’s the biggest thing out of all these is you stay consistent and methodical with it and the doors will open for you to do it. There’s times I definitely didn’t think I was going to get here, but I did. And we’ve gotten here. There’s been definitely days where I’m like, I wish I would not have done it, or why did I create this monster? But at the same time, you know, looking at all the assets and kind of they’re all making money, it’s a good feeling to do that, not just for myself, but my partners, as well as my stamp that I could create something. I think my reasons were very different than just wanting to go make a lot of money. You know, for me it was, it was more about how do I create something, and that, that has a saving essentially for me, a reverse savings account in a way where I can really go put a lot of sweat equity into something and get that higher value at the end, you know, or, you know, while the asset’s performing. So.
Scott Trench: When you’re done with the phase of rehab here in, I think as you called it, the swamp or whatever, what do you want your Tuesday to look like in 5, 10 years?
Nic Morales: I think it’s, like I said, a continuation of what I’m doing now. It’ll be a different swamp, a different deal, a different, you know, more people on the team, hopefully. Like I said, I think for me it’s about—it took a village to get here, and I want to continue to cultivate the village with the team that I have and give my other younger team members opportunities to not feel the pain that I had to go acquire the assets that I did. You know, I think that’s the goal for me, is that as my partners will continue to step out over the next probably 5 to 10 years, how do I ring up the next group of guys or next group of entrepreneurs that want to be a part of it with me? Because I don’t want to do it alone. I have no interest to go walk that path alone. I didn’t have to do it the first time, and I wouldn’t want to do it again. You know, that’s not for me. It’s more about the team and building the staff and the employees, less about doing an individual deal. I think, you know, I love sales because you get to make things that have quick decisions, right? And you get to have some byproduct from that. You get to make a commission or whatever it is. You get to your outcome quick. This has been my longest and greatest sale of my life, is creating my company and my team, because it’s a constant thing that I’ve had to, you know, go back to. So.
Scott Trench: The word you used over and over and over again when I asked you what you want is build. You never used freedom. You never used retiring on the beach, you know, or whatever with that. You said build. You said it over and over and over and over again. And that’s what people don’t get, is that there’s a lot of people out there that are awesome, like Nic, that are trying to build big businesses. And the pursuit of that is the interesting thing here. I think that that’s hard for a lot of BiggerPockets Money listeners, because they don’t register that a lot. Not everyone, but a good portion of the audience, they just want this concept of enough, and then kind of to do whatever, you know, we want with the rest of the day here. And that’s not how it works for a lot of people like yourself that want to build and make something huge, big, theirs. I think those are all ways you’ve described it. And I think that’s, that’s really fascinating. And I’m excited to see what you do end up building over the next 5, 10, 15, 20 years, Nic. So thank you for sharing this with us.
Nic Morales: Yeah, appreciate the time. And yeah, I’m excited for the listeners. Like, there’s no wrong path. Everybody takes their own way. And just because you’re not building a big platform doesn’t mean you’re not building something that’s big in your own life. So big doors swing on little hinges, and little actions make big things happen. So that’s all my story is all about, is taking the little thing every day.
Scott Trench: You are getting a crazy education in real estate, and I hope that your gold medal arrives in the mail soon here and isn’t delayed too much longer here.
Nic Morales: I’ll be waiting for it with the fire on. Yeah, I’m sure once I get it, I’ll change the goal, as I have done many times.
Scott Trench: Awesome. Well, where can people find out more about you, Nic?
Nic Morales: LinkedIn’s the best place. I’m an anti-social media guy. I have no social media, as I stay here in the swamp, being in the weeds. So if you want to connect with me, LinkedIn, BiggerPockets as well, you can find me, but that’s the best place to find me. And I’m happy to connect. And if there’s anything I can do for anyone else in their story or questions, I’m an open book.
Scott Trench: Awesome. One last question before we go. What is on the docket? What happened today, or what’s happening tomorrow? Like, what’s the current to-do list for Nic?
Nic Morales: Today, you know, it’s a combination of all days. It was a bunch of different meetings. Most of my days now consist of doing meetings and organizing with the staff, right? And just understanding and helping problem solve. So today, that’s what I dealt with a lot of today, as well as looking at a couple new acquisitions we’re looking at. And then tomorrow is just a continuation of the same, you know—go back and get 1% better and continue to execute and deliver for myself and my partners and the team.
Scott Trench: So, well, congratulations on what you’ve built so far, Nic. Thank you for sharing the story here. Thanks for sharing where people can find out more about you, and best of luck over the next couple years as the thing starts to take off.
Mindy Jensen: Thank you for your time, and we’ll talk to you soon.
Nic Morales: Appreciate it. Yeah, thanks for the time.
Mindy Jensen: All right, Scott, that was Nic Morales, and that was an interesting recount of his real estate journey. You don’t normally hear people be so honest about the downside of real estate. What did you think of his show?
Scott Trench: I think that that $3 to $5 million net worth, net of liquidation value on that portfolio, came with a pretty high cost.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Mindy Jensen: I don’t know that I would have quit the NFL if I had known this was the other alternative.
Scott Trench: I think it’s a real struggle. And I think that he’s gone through the hardest parts of real estate investing that I can imagine, right? With the wholesaling business, I got no trouble believing, given that— everyone talks about interest rates making things harder to buy. What happened was transaction volume just cratered. So if you were in the lending business from 2021 to 2023, you saw the market evaporate 70% on you. If you were in the real estate agent brokerage, you saw transaction volume get cut in half, right? Because the lending was hit even worse, because there were no new loans for new purchases, and nobody’s refinancing the 3% interest rate mortgage they had, you know, in prior years. So you lose refinancing and new origination volume in the lending environment. On the agent side, you lose the transactions. Wholesalers—basically agents, you know—perform a similar service to agents in transacting properties, although they do it without a license in many cases. And that’s a very challenging environment. So I got no trouble believing that that business was hard there. I got no trouble believing that flips and wholesales were very, very profitable in the months and years leading up to that turning point as well. So what a brutal gauntlet Nic has gone through in this story to get to the point where he’s at now, that $3 to $5 million—he’s probably got several more years in the swamp in South Carolina before he can actually realize that and reap the benefits, if it comes. So there’s good odds, but that’s not guaranteed. So that’s a real price to pay. And I think the story of this is that this is real. This is, I think, a more real example of what it takes to get to $5 million by 30 in real estate than maybe other instances that counted equity in the buildup. Yeah, I agree, Scott.
Mindy Jensen: I appreciate him sharing exactly what he’s going through, because there are so many people who just share the highs of what their story is and they don’t share the lows. He showed us the bunk bed that he’s sleeping in. He showed us—I mean, you could see the fan going. I believe there was no air conditioning in that unit.
Scott Trench: Well, if there’s no air conditioning, then he had already previously sweat out all of the perspiration, because I don’t know how he would have—how is it, 5:00-ish local time, so maybe it’s a little cooler at that point. But yeah, that’s a tough day. That’s a tough day every day, 4 or 5 days a week, 2,000 miles away from home.
Mindy Jensen: That is a tough day. He’s slogging through it. I do hope that he sees the light at the end of the tunnel.
Speaker 1: The gold medal.
Mindy Jensen: The gold medal is in the mail. It’s just coming real slow.
Scott Trench: Well, best of luck to you, Nic. And we really appreciate him coming on and sharing this. We’d love your thoughts on the YouTube channel about this path. And I think this is what entrepreneur ownership in the world of real estate investing looks like, right? There’s the passive-ish end, more passive end, less active end of real estate investing. And then there’s the more active, building-a-business realm. And we clearly went on the far side of that spectrum here today.
Mindy Jensen: The very active end of real estate investing. All right, Scott, should we get out of here?
Scott Trench: Let’s do it.
Mindy Jensen: Well, before we go, we have to remind our listeners that we have a new website, biggerpocketsmoney.com, where we have all sorts of resources for our audience. How
